Everything VanVleet

[MixxAOR]

Everyone agrees that at the right price they’d want to keep Fred right?

Like no one is actually at the point where they flat out want him off the team

Nah I don't like him as a starting point guard period. And him finding his game half way into the season is unacceptable. Aging undersize point guard is not something i want

[Yuri Gagarin]

So what's your new narrative?

No new narrative. What 6 years now we know what freds got 23 games doesnt change anything. In all probability he will produce less in the next four years compared to last 4 (we can make a bet if you want) but expects 50% more. No thanks. Also, I dont like him. He seems like an asshole

[chris]

i'm gonna get flamed for it but he's starting to look like the better long-term option to pair with scottie than pascal to me.

he's a better shooter, he can play off ball (where he should be most of the time when paired with scottie), he's a better playmaker as a pick and roll handler and drive and kick option when he does have the ball, and can also handle the pressure that scottie currently can't as a ball handler (i.e the peyton pritchard and davion mitchell backcourt pressure we've seen recently).

i also think i'd rather pay fred in the ballpark of 30M than pascal in the neighborhood of 50M. plus pascal would fetch a shit-ton more on the trade market

scottie is currently relegated to a bystander when pascal has the ball, and something has to give if he's going to reach his potential sooner rather than later. most on here think the problem is fred, but pascal uses way more possessions and occupies the same spaces on the court that scottie is most effective from.

all this is contingent on fred's health and being able to regain his form defensively from previous years, when he was one of the best at his position, as well as being willing to hand the reigns over to scottie. if he's not willing to do that then he can go too.

[Maury]

i'm gonna get flamed for it but he's starting to look like the better long-term option to pair with scottie than pascal to me.

he's a better shooter, he can play off ball (where he should be most of the time when paired with scottie), he's a better playmaker as a pick and roll handler and drive and kick option when he does have the ball, and can also handle the pressure that scottie currently can't as a ball handler (i.e the peyton pritchard and davion mitchell backcourt pressure we've seen recently).

i also think i'd rather pay fred in the ballpark of 30M than pascal in the neighborhood of 50M. plus pascal would fetch a shit-ton more on the trade market

scottie is currently relegated to a bystander when pascal has the ball, and something has to give if he's going to reach his potential sooner rather than later. most on here think the problem is fred, but pascal uses way more possessions and occupies the same spaces on the court that scottie is most effective from.

all this is contingent on fred's health and being able to regain his form defensively from previous years, when he was one of the best at his position, as well as being willing to hand the reigns over to scottie. if he's not willing to do that then he can go too.

Not a bad take at all, although the hope would be to somehow get Scottie and Pascal to work off each other more fluidly, that would raise the ceiling of this team a lot more than FVV and Scottie as a duo would.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Everyone agrees that at the right price they’d want to keep Fred right?

Like no one is actually at the point where they flat out want him off the team

We know the right price is more than the 28/yr he turned down so ya off the team please

[chris]

Not a bad take at all, although the hope would be to somehow get Scottie and Pascal to work off each other more fluidly, that would raise the ceiling of this team a lot more than FVV and Scottie as a duo would.

that's what i used to think. but i think the long-term outlook of this team is contingent on maxing out scottie's potential, and i think the best way to optimize scottie is to give him the ball and surround him with shooters and finishers. a lineup of fred (shooter), gary (shooter), OG (shooter and finisher), and precious (finisher) makes a lot more sense to me than one with pascal in it at the expense of one of the shooters, especially considering how much pascal has the ball in his hands.

[Bonus Jonas]

What is the right price for Fred? I keep hearing the unconfirmed rumors that he wants something along the lines of what Tyler Herron got. Isn't around $30M per kinda good with the cap going up for a 21 & 7 guard?

30 is too much for me.

I understand Fred’s thoughts if that’s what he’s looking for. He’s had a dreadful season but in his mind he’s one season removed from an allstar game, still relatively young in NBA years, the vocal leader of the team and is playing hurt in a season where the whole team is bad

I’d love to see him back with the team but if I’m paying 30m for a player I want that player being one of the main catalysts of the team and I don’t think Fred should be at this point so it’s tough

[Bonus Jonas]

i'm gonna get flamed for it but he's starting to look like the better long-term option to pair with scottie than pascal to me.

he's a better shooter, he can play off ball (where he should be most of the time when paired with scottie), he's a better playmaker as a pick and roll handler and drive and kick option when he does have the ball, and can also handle the pressure that scottie currently can't as a ball handler (i.e the peyton pritchard and davion mitchell backcourt pressure we've seen recently).

i also think i'd rather pay fred in the ballpark of 30M than pascal in the neighborhood of 50M. plus pascal would fetch a shit-ton more on the trade market

scottie is currently relegated to a bystander when pascal has the ball, and something has to give if he's going to reach his potential sooner rather than later. most on here think the problem is fred, but pascal uses way more possessions and occupies the same spaces on the court that scottie is most effective from.

all this is contingent on fred's health and being able to regain his form defensively from previous years, when he was one of the best at his position, as well as being willing to hand the reigns over to scottie. if he's not willing to do that then he can go too.

The money is a different issue but I think on the court, Siakam and Scottie is the better combo if there’s enough proven shooting around them and they run a two man game. Problem is we don’t have the shooting to have seen if that’s true or not yet but in my head it seems it would be elite

[G__Deane]

Everyone agrees that at the right price they’d want to keep Fred right?

Like no one is actually at the point where they flat out want him off the team

The right price is lower than he'd accept.

His offense has been better lately but virtually every game or 2 out of 3 you see the opposing PG who is going to burn him off the bounce. Look no further than the guards we'll likely face in the post season and tell me who he's clearly better than on a series long basis. And Fred is only going to get even slower over the term of his next contract.

Time to move on, thanks for the memories....sell high.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Everyone agrees that at the right price they’d want to keep Fred right?

Like no one is actually at the point where they flat out want him off the team

I think the counter argument is that this core will have luxury tax problems if they extend everyone at their market value. MLSE might pay tax for a contender but not a lottery team. Plus there are holes they need to fill beyond this core and no money to do it. So if the writing is on the wall that they won't double down on this core it's probably 1-2 pieces of the core need to be moved.

[LJ2]

The right price is lower than he'd accept.

His offense has been better lately but virtually every game or 2 out of 3 you see the opposing PG who is going to burn him off the bounce. Look no further than the guards we'll likely face in the post season and tell me who he's clearly better than on a series long basis. And Fred is only going to get even slower over the term of his next contract.

Time to move on, thanks for the memories....sell high.

One thing to consider here is that Fred is till a better defender than most guards. How long is the list of guards that can give you 20 pts and stay in front of those playoff guards you refer to? The system asks a lot of him as the main point of attack defender.

[Primer]

Everyone agrees that at the right price they’d want to keep Fred right?

Like no one is actually at the point where they flat out want him off the team

I'm at the point of dealing him no matter what. This team as constructed isn't winning anything important. We can't have a SG masquerading as a PG hogging all the shots and not facilitating for the other guys. Plus I think he's breaking down physically and his defense will continue to deteriorate.

[Primer]

that's what i used to think. but i think the long-term outlook of this team is contingent on maxing out scottie's potential, and i think the best way to optimize scottie is to give him the ball and surround him with shooters and finishers. a lineup of fred (shooter), gary (shooter), OG (shooter and finisher), and precious (finisher) makes a lot more sense to me than one with pascal in it at the expense of one of the shooters, especially considering how much pascal has the ball in his hands.

Fred and Gary aren't letting Scottie have the ball in his hands. That's the problem.

Fred refuses to be an off ball shooter. He was blaming his poor play on that to any media person who would interview him. Fred and Scottie cannot coexist in the same starting lineup.

Fred off the bench would be cool but he wants $30M+ per year and won't come off the bench. Time to deal him.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Fred and Gary aren't letting Scottie have the ball in his hands. That's the problem.

Fred refuses to be an off ball shooter. He was blaming his poor play on that to any media person who would interview him. Fred and Scottie cannot coexist in the same starting lineup.

Fred off the bench would be cool but he wants $30M+ per year and won't come off the bench. Time to deal him.

yeah couldn't have said it better myself. off ball or as claw has wanted lead guard off the bench... but that money is WAY too much to warrant that role. Better off spending htat money else where. I would be happy with trying to get either daniels from the pels or alternatively I would look at phoenix.


I get the argument for Gary staying because of his age but You gotta get one to boost barnes usage it also helps og as well to be fair who wants a higher usage role.

[TrueTorontoFan]

#WashedUpFreddy

42 % from the field is not anything to jump for joy about for this team to win as currently constructed he needs to commit to the lower usage role and also shoot more efficiently from the floor