Everything VanVleet

[planetmars]

What you want is what I want also and what we both want there is no doubt that Masai and Bobby are hoping to get.

But I get the sense and you have already implied on your post on another thread that it is just ok to run this back. I hope that this is not one of your Rishaun Holmes moment this trade deadline peddling the idea that a mediocre move would get us out of this predicament.

Running it back and expecting a different result means only one thing….and I am sure you know the answer.

It's not running it back if we're adding a top 5-6 pick to the rotation. And we'll have the summer to make moves like trading off our depth for better depth. Chris/Thad/Khem/Malachi/etc can all just be moved for other stuff, like legit shooters.

Maybe we can get a legit center too. All decisions do not have to be made in a week. We still have the draft and the summer to make changes.

We have good management.. so I'm not that worried. But there are two things I fear.

1) We get crap back for our guys. Since teams don't want to give up much as we think we should.

2) We end up like the Pistons/Rockets/Hornets where we are just perennial losers. The Tampa tank was supposed to be a one off. Now we're here again. If we sell all our vets are we going to continue to be this sucky and for how long? Losing is cancerous to a team/organization.


I think this team we have now would be much better with with more floor spacers and a legit center. I don't think Fred's play early this year was a blip. How he's been playing most recently is the guy I think he'll be more often in the next 2-3 years. I also think we need more shooting, not less. And the guys that are "available" are our only shooters which just means like we're going to be just as bad next season if not worse (and there is a way to get worse).

[Kagemusha]

I'm with you here on this. I think we are trying to create a big market for our guys.. but I'm not really sure that market really exists. But I am happy to be wrong. If we can't find good deals we should just try to bring everyone back and then see what happens next year.

Just do the Tampa Tank thing for the back end of this season where we rest guys on and off until the season ends.

If they do that, then have Scottie run the point full time.
Fred plays off ball, play Koloko more.

Don't care if they all struggle, the point is development and the draft anyway.

To your points above-
1. Masai and co will never allow that, our players are not demanding to be traded. We have the leverage. We have the good players.
2. Boston and Philly. Two teams that sacrificed to be bad for a long time. Different outcomes.
Raptors is not 76ers , we can all agree.

[planetmars]

If they do that, then have Scottie run the point full time.
Fred plays off ball, play Koloko more.

Don't care if they all struggle, the point is development and the draft anyway.

We still need a lot more shooters.. I'd trade Chris/Thad/Malachi/Khem and anyone else that can't shoot off our bench for guys that can shoot. Even if they can't play defense. Scottie needs shooters around him. Pascal as well if we're keeping him.

[The Claw Reborn]

It's not running it back if we're adding a top 5-6 pick to the rotation. And we'll have the summer to make moves like trading off our depth for better depth. Chris/Thad/Khem/Malachi/etc can all just be moved for other stuff, like legit shooters.

Maybe we can get a legit center too. All decisions do not have to be made in a week. We still have the draft and the summer to make changes.

We have good management.. so I'm not that worried. But there are two things I fear.

1) We get crap back for our guys. Since teams don't want to give up much as we think we should.

2) We end up like the Pistons/Rockets/Hornets where we are just perennial losers. The Tampa tank was supposed to be a one off. Now we're here again. If we sell all our vets are we going to continue to be this sucky and for how long? Losing is cancerous to a team/organization.


I think this team we have now would be much better with with more floor spacers and a legit center. I don't think Fred's play early this year was a blip. How he's been playing most recently is the guy I think he'll be more often in the next 2-3 years. I also think we need more shooting, not less. And the guys that are "available" are our only shooters which just means like we're going to be just as bad next season if not worse (and there is a way to get worse).

Too many what IFs with a high price tag.

Lets ship him out.

[LJ2]

It's not running it back if we're adding a top 5-6 pick to the rotation. And we'll have the summer to make moves like trading off our depth for better depth. Chris/Thad/Khem/Malachi/etc can all just be moved for other stuff, like legit shooters.

Maybe we can get a legit center too. All decisions do not have to be made in a week. We still have the draft and the summer to make changes.

We have good management.. so I'm not that worried. But there are two things I fear.

1) We get crap back for our guys. Since teams don't want to give up much as we think we should.

2) We end up like the Pistons/Rockets/Hornets where we are just perennial losers. The Tampa tank was supposed to be a one off. Now we're here again. If we sell all our vets are we going to continue to be this sucky and for how long? Losing is cancerous to a team/organization.


I think this team we have now would be much better with with more floor spacers and a legit center. I don't think Fred's play early this year was a blip. How he's been playing most recently is the guy I think he'll be more often in the next 2-3 years. I also think we need more shooting, not less. And the guys that are "available" are our only shooters which just means like we're going to be just as bad next season if not worse (and there is a way to get worse).

I think it's a bit early to throw the Pistons and Rockets into the "perennial losers" pile. They're both undergoing a full rebuild and still in the acquiring talent phase. Perennial losers would be Minny or even Sacramento before this season.

All of a sudden a rebuilding team puts it all together and they're a contender like Memphis or New Orleans so I think there is some hope for Detroit, Houston, Orlando etc.

[planetmars]

I think it's a bit early to throw the Pistons and Rockets into the "perennial losers" pile. They're both undergoing a full rebuild and still in the acquiring talent phase. Perennial losers would be Minny or even Sacramento before this season.

All of a sudden a rebuilding team puts it all together and they're a contender like Memphis or New Orleans so I think there is some hope for Detroit, Houston, Orlando etc.

So we're looking at like a 4-5 year rebuild.. that's exactly what my fear is. New Orleans is still not ready and they traded Davis 4 years ago. I mean are they even going to make the playoffs?

Memphis is a good example though of a rebuild that flipped quickly. I'll give you them. But it's a tough slog to rebuild a team. Coach's get fired. GM's even get fired through rebuilds. Let's see how it goes.

[planetmars]

Too many what IFs with a high price tag.

Lets ship him out.

Yeah so you would trade him for anything then right? I mean when you say "ship him out" that's what I'm reading.

[The Claw Reborn]

Yeah so you would trade him for anything then right? I mean when you say "ship him out" that's what I'm reading.

No offense but do you actually read?

You are very much hell bent to this idea that VanVleet has no value that a trade is not possible, expecting a mediocre return….So might as well keep him and pay him Herro/ Poole money and run it back. Losing him would make us a perennial loser.

Am I right so far?

Of course we are not shipping him out for peanuts….the news and rumors out there indicates that there are contending teams (New Orleans, Clippers, Lakers, Suns) are all interested of him. Even the Magic have significant interest, may not be now but in the offseason when he is a free agent.

But you are going around the forum that the sky is falling if VanVleet is no longer around.

https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/...rce=reddit.com

Regardless of what happens ahead of the Feb. 9 NBA trade deadline, there are reportedly murmurs that Orlando is willing to throw "a lot of money" at VanVleet who will head into unrestricted free agency this summer, ESPN's Tim MacMahon said on the Hoops Collective Podcast.

[The Claw Reborn]

Some of you….

[LJ2]

So we're looking at like a 4-5 year rebuild.. that's exactly what my fear is. New Orleans is still not ready and they traded Davis 4 years ago. I mean are they even going to make the playoffs?

Memphis is a good example though of a rebuild that flipped quickly. I'll give you them. But it's a tough slog to rebuild a team. Coach's get fired. GM's even get fired through rebuilds. Let's see how it goes.

Yeah a full rebuild is probably a 4-5 year project. New Orleans was picked to come out of the West by many this season and to their credit looked like they could until Zion got injured....again. Those are the breaks. Good think is that Masai doesn't seem interested in a tear down and rebuild.

Comes down to championships at the end of the day. Are you winning one with Pascal or Scottie as your best player or do you play that draft game looking for a Ja or Zion (healthy version).

[planetmars]

No offense but do you actually read?

You are very much hell bent to this idea that VanVleet has no value that a trade is not possible, expecting a mediocre return….So might as well keep him and pay him Herro/ Poole money and run it back. Losing him would make us a perennial loser.

Am I right so far?

Of course we are not shipping him out for peanuts….the news and rumors out there indicates that there are contending teams (New Orleans, Clippers, Lakers, Suns) are all interested of him. Even the Magic have significant interest, may not be now but in the offseason when he is a free agent.

But you are going around the forum that the sky is falling if VanVleet is no longer around.

https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/...rce=reddit.com

Let me try to be clear on my thoughts then..

Yes, I would bring Fred back. I think he can help our team because we lack shooting and he also provides playmaking. But he needs a rim protector to help him out as he's not as good on defense as he once was.

If we can bring back a solid prospect, a first round pick and cap relief then he is tradeable.. hopefully the prospect can shoot or can play center though. The first can be used in a subsequent trade to get a piece as well. So that's always a good asset. Don't want to give away Fred. I don't fear Orlando because I don't think Fred will go to a bad team voluntarily even if he gets paid. At the end of the day, he's still a competitor. If he leaves for nothing then that would suck, but it's better than taking on a bad deal. I think Masai would prefer to pay him than to lose him for nothing and I think Fred would prefer to stay than go to Orlando.

I want this team to start contending next year. Not a championship but at least get to a place where we can be moving up as a team, and not downwards. Maybe in the play-in.. a better team than what we had this year. I think Fred gives us a better chance at that. But if we lose him and get a center or a shooter to replace him, then that's okay too. Cap relief gives us extra flexibility as well.

Long term I don't think Pascal and Scottie fit. I think Scottie and Fred fit better. Pascal is the best player of the 3 now.. but I would want to purse a Pascal trade in the summer over giving him an extension. I think Scottie will grow more as a player without Pascal around since they play the exact same position. It also avoids having to put Scottie in at the 5, or cover the perimeter where he's the least effective as a defender. I'd prefer if he was a roamer like Pascal is now.

[planetmars]

Yeah a full rebuild is probably a 4-5 year project. New Orleans was picked to come out of the West by many this season and to their credit looked like they could until Zion got injured....again. Those are the breaks. Good think is that Masai doesn't seem interested in a tear down and rebuild.

Comes down to championships at the end of the day. Are you winning one with Pascal or Scottie as your best player or do you play that draft game looking for a Ja or Zion (healthy version).

There is no guarantee a tear down would lead to a championship either. We didn't tear down in 2019 and won a championship. But if we're trading OG, Fred and Pascal that's a teardown.

[LJ2]

There is no guarantee a tear down would lead to a championship either. We didn't tear down in 2019 and won a championship. But if we're trading OG, Fred and Pascal that's a teardown.

Yeah, there's no guarantee one way or the other. I don't have an issue if they continue trying to build with this core if they make a system change.

Nothing like having a truly elite player on your roster though...you always feel like you have a chance to win a game. It's been VC and Kawhi for me. So if they do go the rebuild route I wouldn't be too mad either. I'd just pay more attention to college ball and the draft which is something I've been doing more the last couple of seasons anyway.

[The Claw Reborn]

Let me try to be clear on my thoughts then..

Yes, I would bring Fred back. I think he can help our team because we lack shooting and he also provides playmaking. But he needs a rim protector to help him out as he's not as good on defense as he once was.

If we can bring back a solid prospect, a first round pick and cap relief then he is tradeable.. hopefully the prospect can shoot or can play center though. The first can be used in a subsequent trade to get a piece as well. So that's always a good asset. Don't want to give away Fred. I don't fear Orlando because I don't think Fred will go to a bad team voluntarily even if he gets paid. At the end of the day, he's still a competitor. If he leaves for nothing then that would suck, but it's better than taking on a bad deal. I think Masai would prefer to pay him than to lose him for nothing and I think Fred would prefer to stay than go to Orlando.

I want this team to start contending next year. Not a championship but at least get to a place where we can be moving up as a team, and not downwards. Maybe in the play-in.. a better team than what we had this year. I think Fred gives us a better chance at that. But if we lose him and get a center or a shooter to replace him, then that's okay too. Cap relief gives us extra flexibility as well.

Long term I don't think Pascal and Scottie fit. I think Scottie and Fred fit better. Pascal is the best player of the 3 now.. but I would want to purse a Pascal trade in the summer over giving him an extension. I think Scottie will grow more as a player without Pascal around since they play the exact same position. It also avoids having to put Scottie in at the 5, or cover the perimeter where he's the least effective as a defender. I'd prefer if he was a roamer like Pascal is now.

You started with a bold conviction then followed it with a contingency but went back to where you are at.

thanks.

[chris]

Long term I don't think Pascal and Scottie fit. I think Scottie and Fred fit better. Pascal is the best player of the 3 now.. but I would want to purse a Pascal trade in the summer over giving him an extension. I think Scottie will grow more as a player without Pascal around since they play the exact same position. It also avoids having to put Scottie in at the 5, or cover the perimeter where he's the least effective as a defender. I'd prefer if he was a roamer like Pascal is now.

here here. and with pascal publicly proclaiming his desire to be the man prior to last season it's hard to see him ever relinquishing touches to scottie. it seems obvious how fred's game meshes so much better with scottie's than pascal's, at least on on paper. maybe that's been a bit too much in theory than in practice so far for ppl to buy-in though, but it's looked so much better to me in the last 4-5 weeks.