Legacy League match 20 Axel vs TTF

[Axel]

The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

Each team drafted a 10 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

Axel vs True Toronto Fan

Axel's Lineup

PG - Chris Paul - 6' 175 - 4x All-NBA 1st team, 6x All-Def 1st team, 4x NBA Assists leader, 6x NBA steals leader, 36.5% career 3P%
SG/SF - Clyde Drexler 6'7 210 - 27.2 PPG, 7.9 RPG, 5.8 APG, 2.7 SPG
SF/PF - Larry Bird 6'9 220 - 3x MVP, 2x Finals MVP, 2x 50-40-90
PF/C Rasheed Wallace 6'11 230 - 19.3 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 36% 3P%
C - Dwight Howard 6'11 265 - 3x DPOY, 4x All-Def 1st, 22.9 PPG 14.1 RPG 2.4 BPG
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PG Mookie Blaylock 6' 180 - 2x All-Def 1st, 4x All-Def 2nd, 2x steals leader, 17/6/5, 36.6% 3P%
SG/SF Jimmy Butler 6'7 220 - 20.9 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.7 APG
SF/PF Ron Artest 6'6 260 - 18.8 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 3.4 APG, 2.1 SPG, 35.8% 3P%, 2004 DPOY
PF/C Serge Ibaka 6'10 245 - 3x All-Def 1st, 2x blocks leader, 35.5% career 3P%
C/PF Arvydas Sabonis 7'3 279 - 6x Euroscar POY, 2x Mr Europa POY, Hall of Fame


Axel's gameplan

Payton and Sprewell are only positive perimeter defenders, but Spree's 190 lbs is too small to check my perimeter scorers. Glove can only cover 1 player and Paul/Drexler/Bird all averaged 6+ APG to run offence.

He has no options to check Bird, who can run offence allowing Butler/Artest to check opposing PGs if need be.

My versatile bigs have size and athleticism to give Barkley/Kareem different looks. Length to front, size to body, quickness to keep in front.

Will mix up perimeter coverages using switches to shut down shooters.

Korver and KAT will get abused on defence and will struggle to get good shots against my superior defensive team.

Sabonis is elite passing big man who can draw rim defending Cs away from rim, leaving undersized Barkley and overmatched KAT to try and compensate.

To defend Kareem, ideal center with excellent lateral quicks, strength and athleticism.

https://youtu.be/Um5ZK6kRzRE

TrueTorontoFan Lineup
Gary Payton (6’4’’) – NBA Champion, 9x All star, 9x all nba, 8x all defence, Former defensive player of the year, Former NBA steals leader
(1995-96 Sonics Seasons: 19.3 PPG, 4.2 REB, 7.5 AST, 2.9 STL)

Reggie Miller (6’7’’) –5x All star, 3x all nba, 50-40-90 Club, Pacers all time scoring leader
(1989-90 Indiana Season: 24.6 PPG, 3.6 REB, 3.8 AST, 1.3 STL) -(50-40-87 this season)

Karl-Anthony Towns (7′0″) – ROY, all rookie first team, all rookie team, shot 54% from the field, 34%
(2015-16 Phoenix Seasons: 18.3 PPG, 10.5 REB, 2.0 AST, 2.0 STL, 1.7 BLK, 22.59 PER)

Charles Barkley (6′6″) –MVP, 11x all star, Rebound Leader (14 RPG), 11x all nba, NBA 50th Aniversary All Time Team, HOF Shot 34% in one season from 3, highest PER was 24.63)
(1992-93 Phoenix Seasons: 25.61 PPG, 12.2 REB, 5.1 AST, 1.6 STL, 1.0 BLK, 30.6% 3pt %)

Kareem-Abdul Jabbar (7′2″) – All-Time Point Leader, 6x Champion, 5x MVP, 19x all star, 4x blocks leader, 11x all defence, 15x all nba
(1979-81 Laker Seasons: Career: 24.6 PPG, 11.2 REB, 3.6 AST, .9 STL, 2.6 BLK, 27.2 PER)

Russell Westbrook (6′5″) – 5x all star, 2015 Scoring Champion, 5x all nba, 18 regular season triple-doubles (2015-2016), College Pac-10 Defensive player of the year
(2015-16 OKC Seasons: 23.5 PPG, 7.8 REB, 10.4 AST, 2.0 STL, .3 BLK, 27.64 PER)

James Worthy (6′9″) –3x Champion, 7x all star, 4x blocks leader, 2x all nba, NBA 50th Anniversary All Time Team, HOF
(1989-90 Laker Seasons: 21.1 PPG, 6. REB, 3.6 AST, 1.6 STL, .6 BLK, 30.6% 3pt %)

Sprewell (6′5″) – 4x all star, 1x all nba, 1x all defence
(1996-97 GSW Seasons: 24.2 PPG, 4.2 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.7 STL, .6 BLK)

Kyle Korver (6′7″) – all star, lead the league in 3 point% two years in a row2013-2015 (47.2% and 49.2% respectively)
(2014-2015 Atlanta Seasons: 12.1 PPG, 4.1 REB, 2.6 AST, .7 STL, .6 BLK, 49.2% 3pt %)

Ben Wallace (6′9″) – Champion, 5x 4x Defensive player of the year, former nba blocks leader, 4x
all star, 4x blocks leader, 6x all defence, 5x all nba
(2002-03 Pistons Seasons: 6.9 PPG, 15.4 REB, 1.6 AST, 1.4 STL, 3.2 BLK)



Gameplan:
Offense

Kareem would outmatch any big Axel would attempt to trot out. The idea would be to hand an inside – outside game Pick and rolls with Reggie and KATS acting as release valves. Simply put I have more star power and a much more balanced point of attack then Axel. If Axel says Reggie is my only good shooter the same could be said of Bird. Chuck would start in the place of big game James.

Defense

On the wing Gary Payton could definitely help tremendously on CP3. The Glove don’t lie. At the end of the day to have a remote chance he would have to put Sabonis out there along with CP to have enough ball movement to have a chance. The problem is I have rebounding, and defensive prowess. More importantly I have better defense down low and the ability to stop any penetration attempts.

In Game Adjustments - Coming Soon!

So RR faithful, who wins this game?

[BobLoblaw]

Is KAT guarding Bird here? Not judging yet, just my first impression was 'wow'.

Kareem, Payton and Barkley is a great core. So is CP3 and Bird. It will be interesting.

[e_wheazhy_]

I like the pick of KAT. He's gonna be a monster in this league one day. Last season though, his defensive numbers were among the worse in the league, in both DBPM and DRPM

[Maury]

I see Larry Legend going off in this game. The only real chance I see TTF having is if Kareem can dominate Dwight in the post, but I'm not sure that would happen as Dwight is very well built and could most likey handle Kareem.

[BobLoblaw]

Thing is, lots of people could 'handle' Kareem physically. Moses could keep Kareem from gaining great position most of the time. Kareem wasn't that strong or quick. He wasn't stronger or quicker than Moses, or Artis Gilmore or such.

Instead Kareem was very tall, long and had an incredible shooting touch for someone that size. You don't give him greatest position, he still makes unblockable hooks over you.

But not sure how Kareem defends Dwight either. Actually I see it potentially being a bit like with Moses. Kareem couldn't stop Moses, he'd just keep jumping, using power, being physical, getting boards. Quite similar players in many ways. But Moses was a bit more skilled in the post than Dwight and better touch. Dwight jumped higher (edit- and of course much bigger impact defensively overall).

Really cool matchup, i'll think after adjustments and a night's sleep.

[Axel]

Benched Worthy matches perfectly with Artest, Butler on Westbrook. Sabonis plays some PF vs KAT, adding playmaker with Drexler allowing Bird to play Barkley offball screen game. Bird unstoppable on perimeter.

Sheed/Sabonis/Ibaka all better 3P% than KAT, more options to play big. Artest/Butler size for small-ball. Versatile

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...er-Then-Jordan

[Joey]

Referencing a CB4CHAMP thread ... risky move there Axel. Hahah

Will wait to see what TTF does.

[Maury]

Thing is, lots of people could 'handle' Kareem physically. Moses could keep Kareem from gaining great position most of the time. Kareem wasn't that strong or quick. He wasn't stronger or quicker than Moses, or Artis Gilmore or such.

Instead Kareem was very tall, long and had an incredible shooting touch for someone that size. You don't give him greatest position, he still makes unblockable hooks over you.

But not sure how Kareem defends Dwight either. Actually I see it potentially being a bit like with Moses. Kareem couldn't stop Moses, he'd just keep jumping, using power, being physical, getting boards. Quite similar players in many ways. But Moses was a bit more skilled in the post than Dwight and better touch. Dwight jumped higher (edit- and of course much bigger impact defensively overall).

Really cool matchup, i'll think after adjustments and a night's sleep.

You're right about Kareem, but I just don't see him dominating Dwight like he would need to to win.

[BobLoblaw]

I don't like that Sabonis at PF idea.. it's like Dwight-Pau Gasol but more awkward... makes defense slow and awkward, and there's no decent option to guard Barkley if Rasheed Wallace is taken out.

Tbh, I think Barkley is going to be no less a problem for Team Axel than Bird for Team TTF, if they guard each other.

lots of mismatches here for both teams. Reggie trying to defend Clyde. Bird and Barkley guarding each other, I think neither can guard each other well. Dwight and Kareem could be problems for each other to guard. Dwight too strong and athletic for Kareem, Kareem to big and skilled for Dwight.

Sabonis at 4. I think he's going to be like a sitting duck for Team TTF. Pure centers at 4 don't work too well in real life, and in a draft like this where we have athletes like Barkley, Westbrick, Spree etc looking to exploit weak slow links, it's going to be even worse. It's a 5 on 5 game, he'll be the weak link in defense.

Even vs. KAT I don't think Sabonis will help so much, because he'll be floating outside the paint like Pau Gasol next to Dwight.

[Axel]

I don't like that Sabonis at PF idea.. it's like Dwight-Pau Gasol but more awkward... makes defense slow and awkward, and there's no decent option to guard Barkley if Rasheed Wallace is taken out.

Tbh, I think Barkley is going to be no less a problem for Team Axel than Bird for Team TTF, if they guard each other.

lots of mismatches here for both teams. Reggie trying to defend Clyde. Bird and Barkley guarding each other, I think neither can guard each other well. Dwight and Kareem could be problems for each other to guard. Dwight too strong and athletic for Kareem, Kareem to big and skilled for Dwight.

Sabonis at 4. I think he's going to be like a sitting duck for Team TTF. Pure centers at 4 don't work too well in real life, and in a draft like this where we have athletes like Barkley, Westbrick, Spree etc looking to exploit weak slow links, it's going to be even worse. It's a 5 on 5 game, he'll be the weak link in defense.

Even vs. KAT I don't think Sabonis will help so much, because he'll be floating outside the paint like Pau Gasol next to Dwight.

Now that the voting is over; in a 50 word limit, I still managed to add that Sabonis will play "some" PF, it was a minor change to mix things up, add another playmaker and demonstrate my team's ability to play big like my opponent chose to. Sheed is still the starter and plays the majority of the minutes with Ibaka as the primary backup.

Sabonis in the late 80s early 90s is much more athletic than you are giving him credit for. His passing and shooting skills would be a huge boost against an awful defender like KAT and he would certainly hold down his own against the rookie on defence. KAT doesn't have a developed skill set yet, so he isn't going to accomplish much at this level of play. His 34% 3P shooting seems nice, but Sabonis, Sheed and Ibaka all have seasons in the 36-37% range; so good for KAT but not overly impressive at this level of competition.

I surely hope I didn't get your vote for some reason better than Sabonis vs KAT "some" (which doesn't even necessarily mean at the same time that Barkley is on the court since we still have sub patterns).

[BobLoblaw]

Now that the voting is over; in a 50 word limit, I still managed to add that Sabonis will play "some" PF, it was a minor change to mix things up, add another playmaker and demonstrate my team's ability to play big like my opponent chose to. Sheed is still the starter and plays the majority of the minutes with Ibaka as the primary backup.

Sabonis in the late 80s early 90s is much more athletic than you are giving him credit for. His passing and shooting skills would be a huge boost against an awful defender like KAT and he would certainly hold down his own against the rookie on defence. KAT doesn't have a developed skill set yet, so he isn't going to accomplish much at this level of play. His 34% 3P shooting seems nice, but Sabonis, Sheed and Ibaka all have seasons in the 36-37% range; so good for KAT but not overly impressive at this level of competition.

I surely hope I didn't get your vote for some reason better than Sabonis vs KAT "some" (which doesn't even necessarily mean at the same time that Barkley is on the court since we still have sub patterns).

Yep, it's possible that you still planned to keep Sheed at all times with Barkley, and just use Sabonis at 4 when Barkley sits.

It seemed to me that you focused on abusing KAT and forgot the real enemy Barkley, but that could've been a wrong assumption on my part and you just didn't have enough space with 50 words.

--

Re Sabonis, I don't think Sabonis was ever that athletic, even in the 80s. He was pretty athletic for a 7'3 pure center, but he was never a PF. Plus it's debatable that the 80s were his prime. Athletically, health wise, he had more of that in the 1980s, but he was a more dominant player closer to mid 90s.

To me, the advantage of Sabonis over KAT is putting Sabonis in the post where he can use his size, strength and post skills to crush KAT. But if you want Sabonis next to Dwight, not sure that works. Sabonis would be floating further out than he was ever used to.

And that's another thing, why take a player out of his comfort zone, out of what he's used to? Pivoting and playing at 4 can be very different defensively. Sabonis has a lifetime of experience of playing at 5, now we throw that away and ask him to spend a game in a position that he's not used to. I think that would also affect his success.

Could Sabonis keep up with KAT on perimeter? Well, probably not always. He's slower and he's not used to it.

But more importantly, it also opens a can of worms within team defense. It's a 5 on 5 game, it's not just about individual matchups all the time. People are going to switch on him or exploit him in pick and rolls, and it's just going to add a degree of chaos to your defense with everyone having to help more.

To me this is just taking a really good center and turning him into a flawed uncomfortable PF, and it hurts team D in the process.

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Otherwise, its an even matchup. You aren't facing a team of scrubs, the other team has Barkley, Kareem, Payton, Reggie (and arguably a better bench than yours, if Worthy is sitting on the bench).

So there's not much needed to swing my vote. When I saw KAT at 3, I was leaning your side, when I saw Sabonis at 4, I was leaning TTF side.

Realistically, if TTF placed KAT at PF right away instead of SF, voting here would probably be pretty close.

Barkley and Kareem were incredible players and you are overmatched defensively at those positions, no matter who you start. And on the other hand, TTF has no one to defend Bird and should struggle with Clyde as well.

Sheed to me is a good option to defend Barkley, but by that I don't mean that he's a magic bullet and will shut him down, it's still Barkley, he's stronger, the most athletic PF of all time and very skilled. TTF is surrounding Barkley with solid shooters, spacing the floor, which is a good idea.

[Axel]

Legacy League match 20 Axel vs TTF

you just didn't have enough space with 50 words.

This is basically what happened. You pick and choose what you say (and how you say it) and hope the point gets across. Clearly mine didn't work (for you) in this case but that's the name of the game.

Edit - but your right, it was an error on my part not to focus more on defending Barkley which I feel team would have done well with Sheed, Ibaka and maybe some Artest.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Adjustment:

Big Game James would make an Appearance and sub in at SF. Barkley slides back to PF. Westbrook sub in for 5 minutes to give Reggie Miller some rest. The triple-double machine would go off then sit back down. The idea would be to expose his bigs as much as possible.

Westbrooks scoring champ year shooting chart

[Axel]

Adjustment:

Big Game James would make an Appearance and sub in at SF. Barkley slides back to PF. Westbrook sub in for 5 minutes to give Reggie Miller some rest. The triple-double machine would go off then sit back down. The idea would be to expose his bigs as much as possible.

Westbrooks scoring champ year shooting chart

This is the adjustment I was waiting for as I was ready to counter with Jimmy Butler on Westbrook for those stretches, use Sheed and Ibaka to harass Barkley (deny passes using length) and let Bird take on Worthy all day long.