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  • #16
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't think you'd need to include DeRozan for some of these guys.
    Oh yeah, I agree. No need to include DeRozan for those players you have highlighted.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear the first time around. I was trying to say that if you included DeRozan with the expiring contracts (Reggie, Banks, Marco) you could aim for a more talented players than the one's you are currently looking at + that that incoming talent minus outgoing talent might yield a better result for the Raptors.

    That one should look at using the expiring contracts in both ways, then decide the best way to use them.
    nbaroundtable

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    • #17
      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      Good points, I've been wondering if the cap going up helps of hurts the raptors situation. It seems that it has made teams less willing to fire sale since the luxury tax burden won't be as high.
      The cap isn't going up, it's going down. It was announced recently that instead of going down by $4M-5M the number now looks closer to $1M. Either way, we can't make a statement on whether it looks like teams will change their mind on cutting cost until we have something to base it on. We won't have anything to base it on until the summer. Let me ask you something. If your business is losing $15M-$20M a year and the worth of your business has been cut in half due to the economy, what would you do? I can tell the two options I'm hearing tossed around, one is sell and one is cut costs.

      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      I agree with the teams, but disagree with the philosophy. If MLSE is willing to go into the tax to finance a contender, it is only really relevant is Bosh resigns. I don't see much point in going for broke if there isn't a clear vision or foundation for present as well as future success. Spending money does not equate success, but it certainly does help.
      Its not about going for broke. Once you're over the cap its difficult to keep rising significantly unless you have a lot of escalating contracts. This is about protecting their current cap number. Letting those three contract come off the books is counter productive to winning a championship. Spending more typically results in better teams. Nine of the top spenders made the playoffs. Every legit contender is a top ten spender with maybe the exception of the Jazz, who place 11th in spending. Most highly successful teams spend a lot of money. If the Raptors let those contract expire they're filling the media with crap. I believe Colangelo is a man of integrity so I have to believe he's in it to win it. He wants to spend and said he has the green light. This means he should be protecting his current cap number for the future and possibly adding a little more. Luxury tax is only profane to some owners but it shouldn't be to us, it's not coming out of our pockets and MLSE makes lots and lots of money.

      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      I also don't think this team will be as far off from competing for the play offs if Bosh leaves than people think. He is the most replaceable franchise player in the league. The raps might not be able to find 20-10 and a consistent double team, but they could come close for a lot cheaper than 20 million per. I don't want Bosh to leave and then BC to panic trade for the first big money guy available to assuage this fan base.
      This thread isn't about that. Its about identifying some of the potential options he will be faced with.

      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      I just don't like the idea of recklessly spending money just because its available, especially if it gets you more tied down with more bad contracts. The raps shouldn't keep digging themselves deeper into a hole just because thier shovel is big enough. With Bosh, Emeka would be a perfect compliment, I think most people would support that wholly. If the raps keep adding bad contracts and not progressing they will find themselves in the Philly position of having to lie to thier fans that they are happy with thier team simply because admitting the truth means they have a ton of heavy contracts and no promise.
      This thread isn't about recklessly spending money. If the team is capped out for the next four years the salary cap is irrelevant. If they were able to cap dump one of those guys the salary cap is still irrelevant. If the team is capped and the ownership is willing to spend, then spend. Spending more is how you improve when you're capped out for the foreseeable future. Teams who cap dump usually have a window coming up to hit the free agent market or they're hurting financially or both. Toronto won't have a good window for another four years, maybe more. They're not hurting. Spend the damn money already.

      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      To your last point, teams do trade good players with good contracts for expirings. Look at the major trades this year. Jamison and Butler were traded for essentially nothing. Butler comes off the books next year at 10 million and Jamison is on for two more years at 13 and 15. Jamison's contract isn't great, but its by no means an albatross.
      Ok, so one rare example. Those don't happen very often my friend. The norm of events follow my statement.


      mo-sales wrote: View Post
      I guess I'm just more optimistic that BC can turn the expirings into a piece significantly more valuable than a good player with a bad contract, especially coming into a season where they have more value than ever with teams terrified of the new CBA.
      Name the team and player(s). I went through team by team and looked at each situation. If you can improve on my list I welcome that.

      Dave wrote: View Post
      Sorry, I wasn't clear the first time around. I was trying to say that if you included DeRozan with the expiring contracts (Reggie, Banks, Marco) you could aim for a more talented players than the one's you are currently looking at + that that incoming talent minus outgoing talent might yield a better result for the Raptors.

      That one should look at using the expiring contracts in both ways, then decide the best way to use them.
      I agree with this. I was just focusing on one scenario is all.
      Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 20th, 2010, 03:44 PM.

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      • #18
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        Most those guys are far more appealing than Reggie Evans, Marcus Banks and Marco Belinelli.
        i don't see phoenix giving up either one of those guys.

        maybe if they can't find a suitable replacement for amare if he leaves.


        maggette is trash. he wants to stay in gs anyway.
        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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        • #19
          7, as in $7M. That's the Suns current cap number for the 2011/2012 season without the then 38 year old Nash and Barbosa on the books for $19M and assuming they pick up their rookie players' options that year. That's their best time to rebuild and with Nash pretty much finished, that's what they'll need to be doing anyway. Why not get a head start by one year and start the process early? Especially if Amare bails, which looks likely.

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          • #20
            like i said maybe if amare dips,
            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

            Comment


            • #21
              I don't like to quote because it takes up too much space, I will simply try and continue the back and forth.

              While this thread may not be about Bosh's future, it is tied in considerably. If he stays this team is one player away from contending. I believe Emeka or any defensive minded center could be that guy and I would support adding pay roll regardless of the cap ramifications.

              The most important function for improving this team is flexibility. In the coming year, several teams, many of which you named will be desperately looking to shed pay roll for financial relief. I think the Washington mold is one that can be used as a model for future considerations.

              NO is going to unload Paul, it makes too much sense not to. I'm not sure if we have enough to attain him or even then retain him, but that should be a pipe dream he should look into. Philly had to shed soon and no one wants Dalembert or Brand. Taking Young, Lou Williams or Iggy would help. GS has to make a move, they are over loaded at PG and PF. Memphis if they do no keep Gay is always looking to be aggressive, Turk could be a good fit there and they might even want Jose. Minny and NJ are rebuilding and are likely about to have a PG problem. Colangelo keeps looking at this league as it was ten years ago when most deals were fair and both side benefited. The new NBA is one where one team wins a trade and the other wins cap flexibility.

              The goal should not be to acquiesce these teams by taking on thier bad contracts, it should be to hijack these teams for providing a necessary service. By continuing to pay above market value to retain or attain players, he reduces the teams flexibility to answer the bell at the next fire sale.

              Colangelo has been willing to do two things in his reign here, overpay for players and make big deals. So far none of the big signings or moves he has made has panned out. I feel he has been looking in the wrong direction and acting too quickly. Instead of trading talent for talent, he should use this fractured economy and expiring contracts to bide his time until the perfect opportunity arises, not just a potential one.

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              • #22
                mo-sales wrote: View Post
                The goal should not be to acquiesce these teams by taking on thier bad contracts, it should be to hijack these teams for providing a necessary service. By continuing to pay above market value to retain or attain players, he reduces the teams flexibility to answer the bell at the next fire sale.
                Flexibility is all about perception. Colangelo says MLSE is willing to pay tax. He mentioned numbers as high as $7M above the tax threshold. There's lots of flexibility and if he lands a guy with a big contract over the next three years it changes nothing from their current standpoint, except instead of three bench dud they have another starter or high impact 6th man. They're capped for the next four years anyway. Dallas was in the right place at the right time for the Wiz "fire sale". You totally missed the fact that they have an $86M payroll. Teams who sit on their hands and don't take risks never amount to anything. Teams don't sit on expiring contracts hoping for a team to randomly disintegrate.

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                • #23
                  I don't think we are disagreeing. We both want them to spend money and go over the tax, I just don't want them to jump at the first offer for our expiring contracts in standard Colangelo fashion. In order for this team to make a significant jump in the standings, they are likely going to have to add a big piece without giving up too much.

                  This will likely have to wait until after the FA dust settles, but yes I would like to wait for a team to randomly disintegrate and pluck off the assets.

                  As far as assets that the raptors have, the Evans/Banks contracts are as valuable as Derozan. Separately I think the contracts could fetch any of the players on your list, but I think if BC waited he could grab Paul and Emeka for Banks/Evans, Derozan, our first round pick and Bargs.

                  NO would build around Collison, Thorton, their two picks, Derozan, West and Bargs plus whatever they can get for Peja's expiring. They are terrified of Paul walking in two years and with thier current roster and timid ownership, they are unlikely to compete in ultra competitive west.

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                  • #24
                    mo-sales wrote: View Post
                    I just don't want them to jump at the first offer for our expiring contracts in standard Colangelo fashion.
                    What are you basing that on?

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                    • #25
                      When he first traded for TJ for Charlie V, that seemed to come out of nowhere. One day CV was a cornerstone of the franchise, the next day he was gone. Were there better offers out there, did he even check?

                      Similarly with the JO for Marion deal, that was rumored for a while and he seemed so dead set on it that he let Riley hijack him for the 1st round pick because Riley knew how narrow minded he was.

                      BC seems to make up his mind early and stick to it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Was he ever really going to sign Marion long term, didn't it always seem like a rental. How early did he zero in on Turk and disregard everything else.

                      Most of this is pure speculation, but when is BC ever approached for a deal? He seems to be the one always pursuing and as a result has to keep upping the ante. I don't know if it is an ego thing or alpha dog mentality, but i'm doubly worried now where time is of the essence and the July 1st clock keeps ticking, that BC might jump the gun to make another 'Turk' deal and not wait for someone to come to him.

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                      • #26
                        mo-sales wrote: View Post
                        Most of this is pure speculation, but when is BC ever approached for a deal? He seems to be the one always pursuing and as a result has to keep upping the ante. I don't know if it is an ego thing or alpha dog mentality, but i'm doubly worried now where time is of the essence and the July 1st clock keeps ticking, that BC might jump the gun to make another 'Turk' deal and not wait for someone to come to him.
                        Not most of it is speculation, all of it is speculation.

                        Speculation is not a valid argument. I can speculate the exact opposite and now we're at a standstill... If we weren't speculating we would still be at standstill and so I feel compelled to ask the question, is all this speculation about things he didn't do and his personality a worthwhile undertaking?

                        mo-sales wrote: View Post
                        Most of this is pure speculation, but when is BC ever approached for a deal? He seems to be the one always pursuing and as a result has to keep upping the ante.
                        Speculation with zero facts.

                        mo-sales wrote: View Post
                        I don't know if it is an ego thing or alpha dog mentality, but i'm doubly worried now where time is of the essence and the July 1st clock keeps ticking, that BC might jump the gun to make another 'Turk' deal and not wait for someone to come to him.
                        I'm thinking of a word starting with S. It ends with "peculation".

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                        • #27
                          mo-sales wrote: View Post
                          When he first traded for TJ for Charlie V, that seemed to come out of nowhere. One day CV was a cornerstone of the franchise, the next day he was gone. Were there better offers out there, did he even check?

                          Similarly with the JO for Marion deal, that was rumored for a while and he seemed so dead set on it that he let Riley hijack him for the 1st round pick because Riley knew how narrow minded he was.

                          BC seems to make up his mind early and stick to it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Was he ever really going to sign Marion long term, didn't it always seem like a rental. How early did he zero in on Turk and disregard everything else.

                          Most of this is pure speculation, but when is BC ever approached for a deal? He seems to be the one always pursuing and as a result has to keep upping the ante. I don't know if it is an ego thing or alpha dog mentality, but i'm doubly worried now where time is of the essence and the July 1st clock keeps ticking, that BC might jump the gun to make another 'Turk' deal and not wait for someone to come to him.
                          (1) Jermaine -- I don't think there were any other deals out there that offered the immediate cap flexibility Bryan Colangelo wanted and nobody was offering talent. Miami were the only team pursuing Jermaine at that point ... Cleveland were earlier in the year, before Toronto acquired him, but dropped their interest after their outstanding play during the regular season ... So Riley had BC pinned in a corner. Riley held all the leverage and as a result was able to dictate negotiations.

                          Does that mean Colangelo should have made the trade? Absolutely not, the cost was too high, he should have walked away from the deal and kept Jermaine. The Raptors would be in a much better position today if he had done that.

                          (2) TJ Ford for Jermaine -- I thought Bryan Colangelo investigated his options thoroughly and felt that Jermaine was the best trade available. Right or wrong, I thought BC felt Jermaine offered the most.

                          There were a lot of reports of Colangelo talking Ford trades after that season and they involved several teams. I think this was an evaluation problem (of Jermaine and the Raptors post-Jermaine) rather than Colangelo not looking at all of his options.

                          (3) Charlie for TJ -- I don't know, maybe ... I liked the trade though. I loved it from the first moment I hear about it and thought the criticisms of it (trading a big for a small) were off base. So I have no problem with this move. It improved the Raptors considerably.

                          Anyone have any ideas on what Toronto could have gotten instead of Ford for Charlie Villanueva?
                          Last edited by Dave; Wed Apr 21st, 2010, 01:13 PM.
                          nbaroundtable

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                          • #28
                            Point taken.

                            Moving on, here is my list of under the radar players I would like to see thrown in if we were to absorb a big contract via the Banks/Evans/Belli expiring contracts.

                            New Orleans - Julian Wright
                            GS - Brandon Wright
                            Charlotte - DJ Augustin, Tyrus Thomas
                            Philly - Thad Young, Lou Williams
                            Orlando- Mikael Pietrus
                            Indi - Dahntay Jones
                            LAC - Deandre Jordan
                            Houston - Kyle Lowry
                            Miami - Mario Chalmers
                            Lakers - Shannon Brown

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                            • #29
                              Hey Apollo, good thread,
                              I'm sure people are going to be opposed to this but I actually like Arenas and believe he is the most obtainable due to his contract and Washington's situation. Arenas is a slasher/scorer and a big name player that can take pressure off of Bosh and hopefully convince him to sta in T.O. By upgraging the PG position it allows us to keep developing DeRozan and Weems which I think have the potential to reach Igudala type players. I only like this trade if Bosh agrees to stay in T.O and it involves sending Jose to Washington .

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                              • #30
                                mo-sales wrote: View Post
                                Point taken.

                                Moving on, here is my list of under the radar players I would like to see thrown in if we were to absorb a big contract via the Banks/Evans/Belli expiring contracts.

                                New Orleans - Julian Wright
                                GS - Brandon Wright
                                Charlotte - DJ Augustin, Tyrus Thomas
                                Philly - Thad Young, Lou Williams
                                Orlando- Mikael Pietrus
                                Indi - Dahntay Jones
                                LAC - Deandre Jordan
                                Houston - Kyle Lowry
                                Miami - Mario Chalmers
                                Lakers - Shannon Brown
                                Why is Charlotte looking for expiring contracts? Aren't they on the way up, not down?
                                Why would Philly want to keep their big bloated contracts and instead move their good contracts for expiring contracts?
                                What benefit are expiring contracts to Orlando?
                                Why would Pacers or Clippers move young guys for expiring contracts when they're in rebuild mode?
                                Why would Houston feel compelled to ditch a guy making $2M/yr when he himself would have an expiring contract...If Houston wants to pick up his option.
                                Why would Miami want to ditch cap for 2011 when this is their off-season when they move above the cap never to return? Also, Chalmers has an excellent contract and is a good player and so who would want to ditch that?
                                Expiring contracts don't help the Lakers. They're perennial contender and they have an owner with extremely deep pockets... Then there's the fact that Shannon Brown would have an expiring contract if he decides to pick up his player option.
                                Last edited by Apollo; Fri Apr 23rd, 2010, 07:55 PM.

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