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  • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    First off, getting any minutes at all as a rookie on an elite team is nothing to sneeze at. Then, Poeltl has basically performed every time he's gotten on the court. His foot quickness gives him that added-value as a centre-prospect in the modern era, his athleticism verified.

    His trade value is fine.
    His trade value is much lower than that of an actual 9th overall draft pick. People keep saying 9th overall pick, Jakob Poeltl but that's irrelevant when it comes to his actual trade value. He wasn't a high upside prospect, he was meant to be more ready and polished than others but hasn't gotten any sort of opportunity to show that. As such his value is lower than a 9th overall pick which at least has the uncertainty or variability of potentially being a very talented and high potential player. A high potential asset like a draft pick has more value BEFORE it actualizes itself unless what it ends up becoming has already demonstrated itself to be much higher than the expected value of the pick.

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      Let's stop calling Poeltl the #9 pick guys like it means something trade value wise. His value is significantly lower than what the value of that pick was before we actually drafted him because the uncertainty of potentially getting a special kind of prospect is gone. Zach Lowe explained this concept pretty well in one of his recent podcasts.
      Yes, let's stop calling him what he was so we can start assigning and debating a vague value that fits each of our own preconceptions.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • What Atlanta got for Teague and Horford is essentially irrelevant when it comes to the Millsap discussion. They aren't required to settle for a deal they don't like because the other two situations didn't work out great.

        That's like if DeMar walked this past offseason for nothing and then we traded Lowry this year for some decent role players and a late pick because "Meh, better than what we got for DD".

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        • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
          ...and what do you think their #12 pick Taurean's value is?! The same guy who is the only thing ATL has gotten as a result of losing Teague and Horford, just wondering.
          Which is still hot in their minds and the main driving force for them even considering trading Millsap.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • Axel wrote: View Post
            Yes, let's stop calling him what he was so we can start assigning and debating a vague value that fits each of our own preconceptions.
            Words and phrases have connotations. When someone says #9 pick Jakob Poeltl and then goes on to talk about his trade value they are clearly trying to use his status as a former #9 overall pick to inflate or overstate his value.

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            • Lupe wrote: View Post
              Words and phrases have connotations. When someone says #9 pick Jakob Poeltl and then goes on to talk about his trade value they are clearly trying to use his status as a former #9 overall pick to inflate or overstate his value.
              Or they are stating a real indisputable fact about a player. He was the 9th pick in the last draft. That makes way more sense than trying to call him "around the 20th pick value".
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                What Atlanta got for Teague and Horford is essentially irrelevant when it comes to the Millsap discussion. They aren't required to settle for a deal they don't like because the other two situations didn't work out great.

                That's like if DeMar walked this past offseason for nothing and then we traded Lowry this year for some decent role players and a late pick because "Meh, better than what we got for DD".
                If Demar had walked then we would have very likely shopped Lowry to avoid losing him for nothing. It happens frequently in sports.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Lupe wrote: View Post
                  Words and phrases have connotations. When someone says #9 pick Jakob Poeltl and then goes on to talk about his trade value they are clearly trying to use his status as a former #9 overall pick to inflate or overstate his value.
                  It's not that but more being a measuring stick for what's acceptable to ATL when they already accepted a "#12 pick" who still under any arbitrary pick number system is a lesser player than Poeltl and if you want to debate their value being rather equal that's negligible because Poeltl is being suggested as a PIECE of a package, yet ALL they got was a SINGLE player of lesser (or similar value w.e.) and they are in a far, far less position of power.

                  That's keeping things in perspective.

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                  • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
                    Not once did I say it was our offer or nothing, feel free to quote me on that before you make the comment about operating in a vacuum and I would like to see what "10 teams" you're referring to and what those sample trade packages would be and more importantly why would those teams need Millsap because any team that trades for him is banking on a 2-3 year window.

                    Then what's with this abstract conversation about the pick number being just a number?! lol That's not what the conversation is about.

                    Here's the simple fact....ATL has only netted a return of a #12 pick Taurean Prince for their troubles of losing the younger Teague AND Horford (who is fairly close to Millsap in terms of talent level) when they were in a far better position of power. Whatever measurement of previous drafts or future ones you want to give is rather meaningless. The point is they have already accepted what looks to be a lesser player (by himself) when they had bargaining power on their side than the player we're suggesting as a PIECE of a package that contains 3 more young players when Millsap is all they have left and the GM's ass is going to absolutely be on the line now yet some of you are making it out to be an unreasonable offer which is quite frankly is ridiculous.
                    I don't think its fair to say that they got Prince for Teague & Horford. The deal was only for Teague. Horford left because the ATL FO liked Howard over Horford.

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                    • Lupe wrote: View Post
                      What Atlanta got for Teague and Horford is essentially irrelevant when it comes to the Millsap discussion. They aren't required to settle for a deal they don't like because the other two situations didn't work out great.

                      That's like if DeMar walked this past offseason for nothing and then we traded Lowry this year for some decent role players and a late pick because "Meh, better than what we got for DD".
                      Respectfully disagree.
                      Two years ago the hawks won 60 games and had 4 all stars.
                      Horford left for nothing in return. Carroll left for nothing in return. They got a pick for Teague.
                      In 7 months Millsap and Korver could both be gone for nothing.

                      It's really remarkarkable how different the franchise could look in the span of two years. If the starting 5 of that core disappears with only one draft pick to show for it...damn.

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                      • Lupe wrote: View Post
                        His trade value is much lower than that of an actual 9th overall draft pick. People keep saying 9th overall pick, Jakob Poeltl but that's irrelevant when it comes to his actual trade value. He wasn't a high upside prospect, he was meant to be more ready and polished than others but hasn't gotten any sort of opportunity to show that. As such his value is lower than a 9th overall pick which at least has the uncertainty or variability of potentially being a very talented and high potential player. A high potential asset like a draft pick has more value BEFORE it actualizes itself unless what it ends up becoming has already demonstrated itself to be much higher than the expected value of the pick.
                        Hogwash. Prospect value doesn't operate like that. Sure, top 10 draft picks have incredible value pre-draft but that's beside the point.

                        Does Poeltl still have top 10 value respective to his peers? That should be the question. And I've seen nothing from him or his draft class to suggest otherwise.

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                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          Or they are stating a real indisputable fact about a player. He was the 9th pick in the last draft. That makes way more sense than trying to call him "around the 20th pick value".
                          The pick number only matters depending on the draft it's in.

                          The three 9th picks prior to Jakob were Frank Kaminsky, Noah Vonleh, and Trey Burke. What kind of trade value do they have? Would Poeltl go in the top 15 of the 2017 draft?

                          The number 9 is an absolute, but actual value is relative and contextual.

                          Anyways this is getting pointless. I'll circle back in six weeks to see what Millsap actually gets traded for. I suspect he'll net more than these pickless packages, especially now that the CBA makes it more difficult/unlikely to acquire star talent via trade.
                          It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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                          • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            The pick number only matters depending on the draft it's in.

                            The three 9th picks prior to Jakob were Frank Kaminsky, Noah Vonleh, and Trey Burke. What kind of trade value do they have? Would Poeltl go in the top 15 of the 2017 draft?

                            The number 9 is an absolute, but actual value is relative and contextual.

                            [B]Anyways this is getting pointless. [\B]I'll circle back in six weeks to see what Millsap actually gets traded for. I suspect he'll net more than these pickless packages, especially now that the CBA makes it more difficult/unlikely to acquire star talent via trade.
                            The reason this is getting pointless is because people can't even agree on simple things like "is it safe to call Poeltl the 9th pick".
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • slamdunk23 wrote: View Post
                              I don't think its fair to say that they got Prince for Teague & Horford. The deal was only for Teague. Horford left because the ATL FO liked Howard over Horford.
                              Not what happened..

                              Hawks were losing games and Al made it clear mid season that he was going to explore the market. Hawks took some calls about him but didn't like the offers.. so they said "hey maybe we can change his mind later".

                              Season ends, he explores market. They sign Dwight to convince him to stay (I guess). Celtics and Hawks get in a bidding war of sorts with Horford. He demands a 5 year max (Hawks were offering 6 mill less.. which is ONLY about 1.2 mill a season) so the Hawks actually explored a trade to try and get Millsap's 20 mill off the books to make room for him. They don't like the offers AGAIN. So Millsap stays, and Horford ends up signing for LESS somewhere else.

                              That's what happened.

                              I think that whole Horford fiasco shows that they've got pretty much no chance of bringing Millsap back and they better get some actual value for him now.

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                              • Everything Trade Chatter

                                Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                                The genius Brad Steven started him there last year for 71 games.
                                This logic also means that Luis Scola is a logical choice to be a starting NBA PF this year because, you know, context is irrelevant.

                                I'm baffled that people who think JV is too slow to play C for us think that Sully is an answer.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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