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  • KHD wrote: View Post
    For everyone who thinks there's only one way to win these days, memphis just came back against GSW. Gasol and Randolph both played 35+ minutes.

    Golden state has lost now to memphis twice and to the spurs, both of whom play "lumbering" bigs. So lets stop with the BS notion that only superhuman athletic centers can survive. Perimeter defence matters.
    The Spurs beat Golden State in the first game of the season. And guess what, Pau, their Jonas equivalent only played 18 minutes in that game.

    Marc Gasol possesses a level of defensive IQ that Jonas simply does not have. If he was as good defensively as Gasol or even Duncan from a couple years ago nobody would be saying he's an issue. The problem is he's more like Vucevic, Kanter and Monroe than those guys. Because of Gasol's ability to not be a liability defensively, he can stay on the floor which also forces Golden State to put a big on the floor (Zaza played 30 minutes last night) meaning that ZBo can be out there as well since there are 2 bigs (Draymond and Zaza) for them to guard. Plus Zbo was special last night with 26-11-6 on 12-17 shooting.
    Last edited by Lupe; Sat Jan 7, 2017, 09:44 AM.

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      The Spurs beat Golden State in the first game of the season. And guess what, Pau, their Jonas equivalent only played 18 minutes in that game.

      Marc Gasol possesses a level of defensive IQ that Jonas simply does not have. If he was as good defensively as Gasol or even Duncan from a couple years ago nobody would be saying he's an issue. The problem is he's more like Vucevic, Kanter and Monroe than those guys.
      yeah im not saying that, im just saying you can actually play basketball more than one way.

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      • KHD wrote: View Post
        yeah im not saying that, im just saying you can actually play basketball more than one way.
        One other reason Gasol and Randolph can stay on the court is they're very good passers for big men. Both have the ability to make teams pay for double teaming them.
        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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        • Lupe wrote: View Post
          Here's my thing with the Millsap trade.

          Atm it seems there are 2 options that people here are looking at.

          Group A: A deal centered around Ross+2Pat + prospects/picks
          Group B: A deal centered around Valanciunas and CoJo + prospects/picks flipped for Noel

          The first deal leaves you with this:

          Starters: Lowry/DeMar/Carroll/Millsap/Valanciunas
          Bench: CoJo/Powell/Sullinger/Bebe

          To me this is a really serious problem. First of all you have zero shooting coming off the bench. Yeah you strengthened the starting lineup for sure but now you've removed the two best shooters on the bench (Patterson, Ross) and are hoping that Powell (and I suppose Millsap) can replicate that. Powell only takes about half the volume of Ross and mainly uncontested threes, he's not a replacement for what Terrence does on the team, and Millsap is simply just not a great three point shooter. He'll pull a defender out there a bit granted, but he's not going to actually make them better.

          Plus then you've torpedoed the Lowry+Bench lineup and are hoping that CoJo-Lowry-Powell-Sullinger-Bebe or in some cases CoJo-Lowry-Powell-Millsap-Bebe is going to produce the same effect when both of those lineups have nowhere near the spacing and a lot of moving parts from what we're used to. It is a death sentence.

          Now let's look at what happens with the 2nd option:

          Starters: Lowry/DeRozan/Carroll/Millsap/Noel
          Bench: Powell/Ross/Patterson/Sullinger

          In this deal you still have two great shooters coming off the bench. You replace CoJo's minutes with Powell who is a better defender, better shooter and more athletic than Joseph is. He'd be sharing backcourts with Lowry and DeRozan so basically playing a combo guard role like CoJo and you'd be able to maximize his impact on defense because he'd be guarding guys his size and not small forwards half the time. All you change in the Lowry+Bench lineup is replacing the two worst players in it - CoJo and Bebe - for better players Powell and Sullinger. You can still roll out Lowry/Powell/Ross/Patterson/Sullinger(Bebe). You preserve all the shooting you have off the bench, in fact the bench gets better at shooting with Powell taking CoJo's minutes.

          As for the starters in this case, yes you lose some on the glass and offensively at center but that's made up for the fact that Millsap is a way better rebounder and offensive player than Siakam. You get much, much better defensively and I'd argue that starting lineup is just as good as the one with JV in it if not better.

          Seems like a no brainer to me that if you can deal JV for Millsap (I cannot see why Atlanta would reject that trade, the Dwight thing is irrelevant if they're rebuilding) and move CoJo+prospect(s)+pick(s) for Noel or some other defensive center it results in a much better and deeper team than the Ross+2Pat base option.
          Currently, because of limitations, the Raps have not been playing all their starters as many minutes as you would expect. Carroll, Siakim ands JV have been playing less and PPat, Ross and Cojo have been playing close to starters minutes. With Millsap starting you don't need as much JV running out to the perimeter so he can focus on staying closer to the basket for rebounds, put backs, and outlet passes and with Millsap punch, scoring goes up. You weaken the bench, but they can play fewer minutes anyway. Rotations tighten in the playoffs and you have a better 1 through 7 if you can get Millsap and keep JV.

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          • If you have Millsap, you can run bench lineups with two starters in them at all times. Powell is not a downgrade from Ross, he gives you more defensively and any drop off offensively will be limited. Sullinger is a decent backup big, and frankly we've had success with Poeltl or Siakam at the 4 in those bench lineups already - as noted before, the real reason they succeed is mostly Lowry.

            I like that breaking a bench unit is considered a risk too big to take, but taking JV out of the real starting lineup that has performed even better on just as big a sample and against better competition is totally fine.

            Ultimately if we want to make an upgrade, we are going to sacrifice depth. Never mind how unlikely ATL is to want JV in any trade (same for Philly) making that approach essentially requiring 4 teams to be in on a deal or package of deals. I mean, yeah, make it as difficult and unlikely to pull off as possible.

            The difficulty we'll have with re-signing multiple stars in a financially feasible way means we'll be relying on some of our prospects to provide bench minutes anyway. Powell's cheap deal has particular value only if Ross is dealt, meaning more of our useable salary commitment can go towards stars. Same goes for Wright - at some point, if you want to add front end talent (and we do), you take risks on cheaper players being able to play small roles. And as mentioned the risk is not that great - with multiple all star talents, you can have one or two of them on the court at all times, so you can be pretty confident in being able to hold your own throughout the game.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • DanH wrote: View Post
              If you have Millsap, you can run bench lineups with two starters in them at all times. Powell is not a downgrade from Ross, he gives you more defensively and any drop off offensively will be limited. Sullinger is a decent backup big, and frankly we've had success with Poeltl or Siakam at the 4 in those bench lineups already - as noted before, the real reason they succeed is mostly Lowry.

              I like that breaking a bench unit is considered a risk too big to take, but taking JV out of the real starting lineup that has performed even better on just as big a sample and against better competition is totally fine.

              Ultimately if we want to make an upgrade, we are going to sacrifice depth. Never mind how unlikely ATL is to want JV in any trade (same for Philly) making that approach essentially requiring 4 teams to be in on a deal or package of deals. I mean, yeah, make it as difficult and unlikely to pull off as possible.

              The difficulty we'll have with re-signing multiple stars in a financially feasible way means we'll be relying on some of our prospects to provide bench minutes anyway. Powell's cheap deal has particular value only if Ross is dealt, meaning more of our useable salary commitment can go towards stars. Same goes for Wright - at some point, if you want to add front end talent (and we do), you take risks on cheaper players being able to play small roles. And as mentioned the risk is not that great - with multiple all star talents, you can have one or two of them on the court at all times, so you can be pretty confident in being able to hold your own throughout the game.
              Because it is. We've seen already that 2Pat is vital to the success of basically all of our best lineups. JV is in some of them but when you swap him out for Bebe there is almost no dropoff and in many cases the lineup actually gets better.

              And again the utility of a potential Millsap-Patterson frontcourt against Cleveland's Bron-Love or Bron-Frye or Golden State's Durant-Green is going would be immense. Especially with the latter you can outsize them and beat them up inside while still being able to actually guard them on the perimeter. That is not a possibility with Sullinger or JV on the floor (which would be the only options if Patterson was traded).

              You yourself said in another thread that you think Patterson is the 3rd most valuable player on the team. Now you're shifting that opinion because of the positional clash with Millsap but what I'm saying is it isn't really a clash at all. You keep him and Ross you can run better versions of the Lowry+Bench lineup with Powell replacing CoJo, and you get way more and better options down the stretch to go against the lineups that have routinely decimated us in the past.

              And to your last point I am taking a chance on a cheaper player being able to replace someone's role. However to me asking Powell to do what Ross does is illogical. He's not the same type of player and he's very, very undersized at the 3. He's more similar in style to CoJo and that's who I'd want him to replace for cheaper as backup PG/SG. That way you still have Ross' shooting which nobody else on the team but Lowry can compare to and Powell is defending guys that he has an advantage against size and athleticism wise.
              Last edited by Lupe; Sat Jan 7, 2017, 10:44 AM.

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              • KHD wrote: View Post
                starting to think the idiot Kings are going to make a dumbass offer for millsap the way orlando did for ibaka.
                It's what makes them the Kings of Comedy...what would be a win for them would be to send both Rudy and McLemore back to Atlanta to match salary plus the lottery 1st to help Atlanta with the indigestion of choking down those two bad contracts
                Last edited by Demographic Shift; Sat Jan 7, 2017, 11:33 AM.
                And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

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                • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                  It's what makes them the Kings of Comedy...what would be a win for them would be to send both Rudy and McLemore back to Atlanta to match salary plus the 1st to help Atlanta with the indigestion of choking down those two bad contracts
                  These contracts aren't bad, coming of the books this offseason, but I doubt they'd want to resign McLemore or Gay. Addition by substraction + Milsap would be enough to propel them into playoffs, rewarding ATL only with 15th pick for Milsap. As i mentioned earlier ATL really lack bodies and players on good contracts, with cap going even higher it's not gonna get easier to get reliable rotation. So I doubt ATL settles for 1 pick from SAC, but if they offer more, then I doubt we'd be able to outbid them.

                  I heard rumors about POR entering the race and that makes even less sense. Have anyone seen their payroll?. They payroll for next season is already at $137,394,602, deep into luxury tax. How in the world would they sign Milsap in the offseason without serious salary shedding? Crabbe and Turner contracts are atrocious and account for $35M, so you'd have to attach multiple picks to get rid of them. So now we are talking about losing multiple picks not only to sign Milsap but also to resign him. They really got late with all their signings one season, as they are over salary cap through 19/20 season with core of Lillard/McCollum/Crabbe/Turner/Leonard/Harkless.

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                  • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                    One other reason Gasol and Randolph can stay on the court is they're very good passers for big men. Both have the ability to make teams pay for double teaming them.
                    Gasol is a great passer. Randolph is really nothing special at all in that department.

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                    • KHD wrote: View Post
                      starting to think the idiot Kings are going to make a dumbass offer for millsap the way orlando did for ibaka.
                      Yep. Just waiting for the report that Kings will be trading the Hawks an unprotected first round pick for Millsap

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                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        Gasol is a great passer. Randolph is really nothing special at all in that department.
                        I love Marc Gasol.
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • Can someone fill me in on why we're hesitant to include PPat in a trade package? I was of the understanding that he will become an unrestricted free agent this summer and that we do not own his bird rights. If we don't have his bird rights than there's no way we're able to retain Patterson while also keeping Lowry.

                          When I look at it through that lens, suddenly it seems to me that the best asset management strategy would be to try and turn Patterson into something that will help us long term. The ability to have Millsap's bird rights is a tangible asset in my mind. A package with Patterson and picks as the center makes sense to me. I'd love to keep Ross and Big V out of it.

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                          • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                            Not saying JJ was perfectly utilized and arguably underutilized, but in defense of Casey, JJ with the Raptors was what he had always been.

                            Here's a Chad Ford comment on his play at Wake Forest in 2009:



                            7 years in the league and that was still JJ. Great man defender, not so great team defender. Career .266 from 3. In his 2 years with us, .265 from 3, We had spacing issues without him, and he just exacerbated that problem. Don't think anyone would have bet actual money on him shooting .385 from beyond the arc with a career high in attempts already.

                            That said, he was the best passing big we've had since ????( cant think of anyone better,) And Miami (this year especially) may have been the best situation as you mentioned, with the freedom and playing time. Plus Spoelstra seems to be a bit of a rehabilitation artist, as he showed with Whiteside. Doesn't work with every player though. Derrick Williams got more money from the Heat than JJ this past offseason and even with all the issues the Heat have, is getting more DNP-CD's than playing time.
                            Not to mention how much all the reps on the white squad going against our best lineup improved him.

                            He wasn't exactly a reclamation project but he wasn't high on anyones list to be the 14th man.

                            Great for JJ.

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                            • Garbo wrote: View Post
                              Can someone fill me in on why we're hesitant to include PPat in a trade package? I was of the understanding that he will become an unrestricted free agent this summer and that we do not own his bird rights. If we don't have his bird rights than there's no way we're able to retain Patterson while also keeping Lowry.

                              When I look at it through that lens, suddenly it seems to me that the best asset management strategy would be to try and turn Patterson into something that will help us long term. The ability to have Millsap's bird rights is a tangible asset in my mind. A package with Patterson and picks as the center makes sense to me. I'd love to keep Ross and Big V out of it.
                              We have PPat bird rights, but not Sully ones.

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                              • If there is a bidding war, expect Masai to stand pat. Some of these proposals have a lot going the other way for a half season Millsap rental, that guy is not going to tip the balance of power if the East.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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