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  • octothorp wrote: View Post
    While I don't think the Ibaka/Hezonja trade you floated above is realistic, a package based around Ross and their choice of Siakam or Poeltl would be very intriguing for them, because it essentially allows them to hit the reset button on what was a bad trade. They get a similar but much cheaper 3-and-D winger to replace Oladipo, and a young, good upside big to replace Sabonis. That's a good, low-risk move for a franchise that would be really set back by losing Ibaka in free agency for nothing.
    Yeah, I think you'd have to toss in a Siakam/Poeltl, even from the standpoint of your frontcourt rotation having high minute guys in JV/Ibaka/Patterson. Not many minutes left for development there. Sending back Sullinger would then be looked for future cap flexibility.

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    • planetmars wrote: View Post
      I don't see Orlando giving up Ibaka without attaching a player they don't need like Green or Vucevic. We don't need Vuc, and Green really sucks.

      A trade that helps both teams I guess would be Ibaka/Green for Carroll/Ross/Poeltl (or Wright).

      Orlando gets shooting and guys that are locked into longer term deals. We get Ibaka and an expiring to help offset some of the tax when we resign Lowry/2Pat and Ibaka. Our only wings next year though would be DD and Powell. We'd have to use one or both of our picks to draft a wing, and hope they'd be able to contribute next year.

      If Masai is able to convince Orlando to take CoJo instead of Ross then that would be ideal. But I don't see Orlando shopping Ibaka. They probably feel they have a good chance to resign him in the off season. There has been no indication at all that Ibaka was even available and usually there is a hint if that was true so that Orlando could create a bidding war.. like Atlanta tried doing for Millsap.
      That's giving up 2 of Toronto's 4 (Lowry, Ross, Caroll, 2 Pat) 3 point shooters for a guy you says sucks and a guy who has appeared to be aging rapidly. Ross, you could argue, can be replaced by Powell, but in no way, shape, or form does Green play at the level of Caroll -- bad knee and all. Plus, you're giving away a mobile, young big for nothing when most of this board complains about JV immobility.

      At best, that's a zero sum move. At worst, Green's play makes the team worse, Ibaka gets benched for an eventually healthy Sullinger, Powell still needs some seasoning, and you've given away a prospect. Yes, you get nearly 30 Mill off your books, which lets you sign a free agent, if 2 Pat and Lowry are patient, but defenses would just pack the paint with both Ross and Caroll out of the lineup. The playoffs wouldn't go well.

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      • I'm not sure what our obsession is with an old looking Ibaka.

        Yes I do like his fit but he is FAR from the piece that gets us over the hump and nowhere near worth being a repeat offender of the luxury tax. If he was locked in for the next 4 years at his current pay rate, make it happen but he is going to demand a huge pay day and simply isn't worth it. Let ORL pay out the nose for more mediocrity.

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        • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
          I'm not sure what our obsession is with an old looking Ibaka.

          Yes I do like his fit but he is FAR from the piece that gets us over the hump and nowhere near worth being a repeat offender of the luxury tax. If he was locked in for the next 4 years at his current pay rate, make it happen but he is going to demand a huge pay day and simply isn't worth it. Let ORL pay out the nose for more mediocrity.
          Yeah if they threw 17 mill per year to sign Biz, they or someone with cap space will sign Serge to at least 25 mill per yearor mmore, Serge will turn 32 next season ( That's his real age!) and his once strong defence is declining.

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          • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
            That's giving up 2 of Toronto's 4 (Lowry, Ross, Caroll, 2 Pat) 3 point shooters for a guy you says sucks and a guy who has appeared to be aging rapidly. Ross, you could argue, can be replaced by Powell, but in no way, shape, or form does Green play at the level of Caroll -- bad knee and all. Plus, you're giving away a mobile, young big for nothing when most of this board complains about JV immobility.

            At best, that's a zero sum move. At worst, Green's play makes the team worse, Ibaka gets benched for an eventually healthy Sullinger, Powell still needs some seasoning, and you've given away a prospect. Yes, you get nearly 30 Mill off your books, which lets you sign a free agent, if 2 Pat and Lowry are patient, but defenses would just pack the paint with both Ross and Caroll out of the lineup. The playoffs wouldn't go well.
            Ibaka shoots about 39% from 3 and took 118 shots this year (so far). His shot chart shows that he's good across the arc and doesn't just settle for corner 3's. Yes we lose wing shooting.. but the point would be to upgrade the PF spot and use Powell as our starting SF. Ibaka is 27 (although probably not true).. and he may be declining but still has a positive win share both offensively and defensively and doesn't require much usage (about 20% which is perfect under the DD/KL 'guard' system). Ibaka can also play the 5 so we get some additional flexibility. A small ball line up of Ibaka/2Pat/Powell/DD/KL could be great both defensively and offensively and help against a team like Cleveland or Boston. Ibaka isn't an elite rebounder which sucks.. but he's adequate (7 rpg career average). And still pulling down about 7 a game with Biyombo and Vuc next to him.

            Sully should never force Ibaka to the bench.. that doesn't make sense. Sully is an inferior player. If giving away a prospect means Poeltl or Wright.. well those guys are wasting away on our bench and we have two more picks coming our way. It's time to trade one of them to help immediately.

            Green is cap ballast. He'd be bench depth to bring in for this season/playoffs and only for matchup reasons.. but he should be battling Siakam for minutes. He's then gone by the summer. Only reason to bring him back is to get size at the SF (essentially a poor mans' JJ). And to help reduce the tax bill for next year when Lowry/2Pat/Ibaka are brought back. We won't be able to participate in free agency as Ibaka's/Lowry's/2Pat's cap holds would be too high to get us under the cap even if Ross/Carroll's contracts are off the books.

            Of course I'd rather have Millsap. But Atlanta's winning and probably wants to keep him. If Ibaka is available he'd be a good fit in my opinion... and Masai had interest in him in the summer. I doubt that interest has faded.

            Comment


            • Hotshot wrote: View Post
              Yeah if they threw 17 mill per year to sign Biz, they or someone with cap space will sign Serge to at least 25 mill per yearor mmore, Serge will turn 32 next season ( That's his real age!) and his once strong defence is declining.
              Exactly.

              Claim I'm stereotyping etc, I don't care but I really don't buy Serge's listed age and don't shoot the messenger it's just a common act and many times they're just unsure of the age but thing is certain is Ibaka does not look like a player entering his physical prime but one that is getting closer to the other end of it. You would think in a place like ORL in his "prime" he would have ample opportunity to show what a great player he has become and that hasn't been the case and yes defensively it's looking to be the opposite. But my main issue isn't really discussing his age (not implying it was yours either) but the simple fact he is not enough...

              It makes no sense to destroy ourselves deep into the repeaters tax for him (& Patterson lol smh). Ibaka to me doesn't even ensure a trip to the ECF moving forward and he doesn't close the gap between us and CLE by much either. I'm not even a huge fan of trading for Millsap but imo, PM should be the minimum "upgrade" we attempt to make. I don't think Paul gets us past CLE either but he would make it more of a dog fight and should someone like Kyrie or Love struggle with injuries etc I think he puts us in striking distance to upset, Ibaka isn't quite that level imo. The next step up would be Cousins and the player I think actually gives us a chance is George but I don't think either are available.

              A sad reality that is setting in with me is I think we have to find a way to add Millsap without giving up our picks and just hope for the best. I don't think there is a move out there that will make us true championship contenders and while we may want to wait for LBJ to decline, Lowry will at the same time and if healthy PHI absolutely will have next.

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              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                Ibaka shoots about 39% from 3 and took 118 shots this year (so far). His shot chart shows that he's good across the arc and doesn't just settle for corner 3's. Yes we lose wing shooting.. but the point would be to upgrade the PF spot and use Powell as our starting SF. Ibaka is 27 (although probably not true).. and he may be declining but still has a positive win share both offensively and defensively and doesn't require much usage (about 20% which is perfect under the DD/KL 'guard' system). Ibaka can also play the 5 so we get some additional flexibility. A small ball line up of Ibaka/2Pat/Powell/DD/KL could be great both defensively and offensively and help against a team like Cleveland or Boston. Ibaka isn't an elite rebounder which sucks.. but he's adequate (7 rpg career average). And still pulling down about 7 a game with Biyombo and Vuc next to him.

                Sully should never force Ibaka to the bench.. that doesn't make sense. Sully is an inferior player. If giving away a prospect means Poeltl or Wright.. well those guys are wasting away on our bench and we have two more picks coming our way. It's time to trade one of them to help immediately.

                Green is cap ballast. He'd be bench depth to bring in for this season/playoffs and only for matchup reasons.. but he should be battling Siakam for minutes. He's then gone by the summer. Only reason to bring him back is to get size at the SF (essentially a poor mans' JJ). And to help reduce the tax bill for next year when Lowry/2Pat/Ibaka are brought back. We won't be able to participate in free agency as Ibaka's/Lowry's/2Pat's cap holds would be too high to get us under the cap even if Ross/Carroll's contracts are off the books.

                Of course I'd rather have Millsap. But Atlanta's winning and probably wants to keep him. If Ibaka is available he'd be a good fit in my opinion... and Masai had interest in him in the summer. I doubt that interest has faded.
                My issue with Ibaka is does he actually make us a real contender?!

                I think the answer is no. I also think last year's team was very slightly better than this year's simply because we had better post defence with Biz which I know Serge should help but he also isn't the same level defensively he once was. I think even if we had Ibaka from the beginning of the year this team would finish with a similar record to last year's (perhaps a couple more or less) and bigger issue is when Lowry and DD go cold, Serge may be able to shoot but he can't create for himself very well.

                The bigger issue is selling management on paying huge luxury tax bills for Serge. For one, he's not a household name that will effect merchandise sales, won't increase media coverage by much (like a Blake Griffin would just for sake of comparison) and likely won't take us any further than we've already been so where's the upside for them to pay these huge repeater's tax bills please tell me??? In addition you have BOS who is just barely behind us now (if at all) who will likely be adding Hayward and one of Fultz, Ball or Markannen and still have a handful of young players like Smart, Olynk, Bradley to package as well likely ANOTHER top 5 pick next year that they can draft or package.

                Remember Masai has to sell to management why they are eating huge tax bills?! If the player coming in doesn't generate a substantially larger amount of interest in the team either from a player's marketibility or actually playing for a championship, it's going to be an incredibly tough sell to fork out the dollars year after year.

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                • Anyone feel the least bit quesy about the Bulls.... who are about to go Ka Boom.....trading Butler to the Celts for a couple of their starters (two of Smart /Crowder / Bradley) and a couple of high draft picks ?
                  Canadas election mantra #Dump the Chump

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                  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                    Anyone feel the least bit quesy about the Bulls.... who are about to go Ka Boom.....trading Butler to the Celts for a couple of their starters (two of Smart /Crowder / Bradley) and a couple of high draft picks ?
                    Personally I don't see Ainge giving up BOTH picks but perhaps one. With Crowder whining about going for Hayward I think he would almost guaranteed be in the package going back and as aside this is exactly why I don't think trading for Ibaka is enough. The Celtics with IT/Butler/Hayward/(draft pick: Markannen)/Horford, we're getting slapped down to 3rd and suddenly not even sure if we can make the ECF anymore.

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                    • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
                      My issue with Ibaka is does he actually make us a real contender?!

                      I think the answer is no. I also think last year's team was very slightly better than this year's simply because we had better post defence with Biz which I know Serge should help but he also isn't the same level defensively he once was. I think even if we had Ibaka from the beginning of the year this team would finish with a similar record to last year's (perhaps a couple more or less) and bigger issue is when Lowry and DD go cold, Serge may be able to shoot but he can't create for himself very well.

                      The bigger issue is selling management on paying huge luxury tax bills for Serge. For one, he's not a household name that will effect merchandise sales, won't increase media coverage by much (like a Blake Griffin would just for sake of comparison) and likely won't take us any further than we've already been so where's the upside for them to pay these huge repeater's tax bills please tell me??? In addition you have BOS who is just barely behind us now (if at all) who will likely be adding Hayward and one of Fultz, Ball or Markannen and still have a handful of young players like Smart, Olynk, Bradley to package as well likely ANOTHER top 5 pick next year that they can draft or package.

                      Remember Masai has to sell to management why they are eating huge tax bills?! If the player coming in doesn't generate a substantially larger amount of interest in the team either from a player's marketibility or actually playing for a championship, it's going to be an incredibly tough sell to fork out the dollars year after year.
                      Ibaka doesn't make us an NBA championship level contender.. but he'll help us get home court in the first round of the playoffs for the next 1-2 years (while Lowry's window is open).. and with a few lucky breaks (say an injury in Cleveland) he might get us to the finals. He's not a household name but neither is Kyle really nor would someone like Millsap be. You don't need a household name playing for the Raptors.. and if ownership needs that then they can continue to sell DeMar.

                      As for tax.. yeah that's an issue. But what's the alternative? If we bring this exact same team back next season (minus Sully, but with the two rookies), the Raptors payroll will be about $135-$137M (assuming 2Pat and Kyle get $45M - $15/$30 and that's being generous). The tax line is predicted to be at $122M. So turning this team into a contender is not going to be easy no matter what we do. And MLSE might be on board.. maybe 3 rounds of playoff ball is enough revenue to make them feel good about paying the tax. I'm worried as hell that they would say no to paying tax.. but I'm not the one paying it.. and the penalties for being a repeater tax team are harsh.. but we'd still be able to make transactions.. just not use free agency to get better.. Something we can't really do anyway.

                      If the asking price is Carroll/Ross/Poeltl then those three are enough to match Ibaka's starting salary next year ($27M). So from a dollars/cents perspective it's a net neutral move. Yet I think we'd be better. I'd rather have a solid starting 5 then a great bench. Poeltl doesn't play anyway and losing Carroll and Ross gives more minutes to Powell who's pretty good and will just get better. I also have faith that at least one of our two picks this year will lead to some quality talent that can end up replacing what Carroll or Ross do now.

                      Boston and Philly look like they have bright futures. But at this point it's too late to tank and start again. I guess I'm okay if this team ends up as a treadmill team during Kyle's window. It's still better than what it was like for the first two decades.

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                      • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                        Anyone feel the least bit quesy about the Bulls.... who are about to go Ka Boom.....trading Butler to the Celts for a couple of their starters (two of Smart /Crowder / Bradley) and a couple of high draft picks ?
                        If it happens good on Celtics at least Danny ainge is trying 2 put Boston with Cleveland, as for Masai,no f@@ken idea.....still waiting..
                        "Never apologize for coming to me. Office hours are for patients.
                        My kitchen is always open to friends"

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                        • planetmars wrote: View Post
                          Ibaka doesn't make us an NBA championship level contender..
                          I never understood what you just said. I never understood when somone suggest a trade and then someone like you comes back with that clitche statement !!!
                          There are probably 2 players in this league that can make a given team an " NBA championship level contender" : KD and LJ.

                          That is it. The rest of the NBA builds a team piece by piece and hopes that it can become a compelte when the time is right.

                          What you just said makes no sense ... If we are waiting for that player, we will never get. We just have to improve and show that we are serious about getting better and serious about competeing.

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                          • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                            I never understood what you just said. I never understood when somone suggest a trade and then someone like you comes back with that clitche statement !!!
                            There are probably 2 players in this league that can make a given team an " NBA championship level contender" : KD and LJ.

                            That is it. The rest of the NBA builds a team piece by piece and hopes that it can become a compelte when the time is right.

                            What you just said makes no sense ... If we are waiting for that player, we will never get. We just have to improve and show that we are serious about getting better and serious about competeing.
                            Not sure if you read my entire post. Not sure what part was confusing. I was responding directly to JamesNaismith. I was agreeing with him that Ibaka wouldn't make us a championship contender (just like you do).. yet I'd still trade for him if he was available (because he would make us better).

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                            • planetmars wrote: View Post
                              Not sure if you read my entire post. Not sure what part was confusing. I was responding directly to JamesNaismith. I was agreeing with him that Ibaka wouldn't make us a championship contender (just like you do).. yet I'd still trade for him if he was available (because he would make us better).
                              Right now we aren't competitive. We need someone who can help defence. Sure patterson is good but we have no consistent person who can anchor things. Ibaka would fit in perfectly.

                              Comment


                              • A vocal leader on defence is definitely something we need right now. I just don't know if they can turn it around at this point. Guys can say what they want to say to the media but to play great D, you have to have everyone motivated to do so. Not seeing that right now.

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