Everything Trade Chatter

[lewro]

If anyone is interested in D. Powell, this is about a week old:

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2016/12...vericks-future

always great links keon

[lewro]

Yeah I get it, and if we limited it to clearly available guys we'd be trying to talk ourselves into Greg Monroe or Rudy Gay. (Did I forget anyone?)

Though I admit it is amusing having someone pull an original trade out of their tukhus and it gets 3 pages of debate.

no, you didnt forget anyone. you love to stir the pot? that's fine, to each his own. tukhus? been a long time. grand-pappy.

[Chr1s1anL]

The Raps offense has moved away from JV post ups, and it's probably permanent.

They're getting their bigs out of the lane, and essentially running a spread pick and roll offense. Just like every top offense in the NBA. The Raps are isolating out of the spread pick and roll, but the spacing concepts are essentially the same as what the Warriors run.

JV's post ups take away DeMar, Kyle, and Cory's drives. And post ups in general take the Raps out of what they're being successful at.

The league is going towards spread pick and roll. If you want a good offense, that's what you run. If you want a good defense, that's what you defend.

JV is fine in spread pick and roll on offense, since he can set a nice pick, then short roll to the free throw line and hit that jumper.

On defense he doesn't have the quickness to recover off a hedge or stick with a guard for a couple of dribbles. So, he can't guard it.

The problem with JV is a strategic one. He doesn't fit what the Raps are doing. He doesn't fit where the league is going. He doesn't fit.

Spread pick and roll offense has been torching the league for a few years now. At an historic rate. The post up offense you're proposing is a horrible idea. JV's numbers would be better, sure, but the team's numbers wouldn't.

Very well said.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Mess]

no, you didnt forget anyone. you love to stir the pot? that's fine, to each his own. tukhus? been a long time. grand-pappy.

It was the newest JV - Powell trade I was referring to in the 2nd sentence.

The first part was just me being sarcastic, funny enough I actually do think Noel is clearly available. Didn't mean for it to come across so harsh though.

[Scraptor]

This Powell-for-JV nonsense is some of the stupidest talk I've seen on a Raptors forum. Powell has a 12.8% total rebounding percentage (8.0 boards per 36), and as 3inthekeon's link showed, he can't shoot at all and can't play D. You want to trade a bona fide offensive weapon and strong rebounder on a good contract for this scrub? Carlisle isn't even starting him with Dirk and Bogut out, he's starting Dorian Finney-Smith and Salah Mejri.

I've been one of the guys saying JV is a wasted asset on this team, but that doesn't mean you give him away for scraps. The grass is always greener on the other side, but in this case it isn't even greener, it's yellow and patchy. Even if they threw in Bogut we'd be getting robbed.

I understand that the league is moving away from traditional centres but as a capped out team we can't just give away value. Good grief.

[planetmars]

Woe.. someone suggested trading JV for Powell? Maybe if we get their first round pick (unprotected).. and even then it would mean we're basically writing of this year since we would have no capable starting center.

As for paying tax.. we did once under BC. So MLSE will do it under the right circumstances. Pretty sure he would. However if we're cutting anyone I'd get rid of Carroll before JV. Carroll has two guys that can play his position and arguably better than he could.

[jimmie]

This Powell-for-JV nonsense is some of the stupidest talk I've seen on a Raptors forum. Powell has a 12.8% total rebounding percentage (8.0 boards per 36), and as 3inthekeon's link showed, he can't shoot at all and can't play D. You want to trade a bona fide offensive weapon and strong rebounder on a good contract for this scrub? Carlisle isn't even starting him with Dirk and Bogut out, he's starting Dorian Finney-Smith and Salah Mejri.

I've been one of the guys saying JV is a wasted asset on this team, but that doesn't mean you give him away for scraps. The grass is always greener on the other side, but in this case it isn't even greener, it's yellow and patchy. Even if they threw in Bogut we'd be getting robbed.

I understand that the league is moving away from traditional centres but as a capped out team we can't just give away value. Good grief.

I think the issue is that none of these moves can be done in isolation. JV is both the 'bad fit' and the best trade bait on the team (well, maybe Ross and/or Pat have more value at the moment, but generally speaking). So the discussions of 'how to fix the D issues' becomes a bit complicated. Move JV as part of a deal for an elite 4, we still need a defensive 5. Move JV for a defensive 5 still leaves a hole at 4.

With the backcourt not set to change dramatically, and the system on O and D being designed to fit them on O and protect them on D, the need for a long, athletic, defensively apt frontcourt is the main issue right now.

So, some combo of moves involving JV and bringing back a defensive 5 and a traditional stretch 4 would be the best of both worlds. That's why Noel's name keeps coming up as a possible way to solve the 5 issue without even losing JV (Noel won't cost much). Powell, on the other hand, would provide cap space in addition to adding a young 4/5 with some upside to possibly thrive more in a system built more to his strengths. It wouldn't make sense in isolation, but if the cap space gets you an elite 4 in the offseason, would that make it more palatable? I also think if they wanted Powell they might be able to get him without JV in the package. I can see why someone might think about Powell, but I personally wouldn't take on that risk of upside.

Of course the options don't jump out at anyone or seem obvious; the big, franchise-affecting moves rarely do.

[Lupe]

People gotta chill on the Powell for JV trade talks. Yeah I don't think JV is a great fit for us defensively and his offensive skillset is underused, but he still has quite a lot of value. We need to get a lot of value back in a trade, not fringe role players.

[lewro]

It was the newest JV - Powell trade I was referring to in the 2nd sentence.

The first part was just me being sarcastic, funny enough I actually do think Noel is clearly available. Didn't mean for it to come across so harsh though.

Yep, I know. I didn't think it was harsh, I was playing too.

[lewro]

Cap space is interesting to consider with milsap and Griffin coming on the market.
Finney-smith shows some under the radar promise. I think raps worked him 2 or 3 times?
Masai said mlse will go into the luxury if warranted. I also like the idea of moving Carroll.

[Mapko]

Very curious to hear what offensive skills JV and Whiteside have in common.

They can both dunk (lol)?

[Scraptor]

I think the issue is that none of these moves can be done in isolation. JV is both the 'bad fit' and the best trade bait on the team (well, maybe Ross and/or Pat have more value at the moment, but generally speaking). So the discussions of 'how to fix the D issues' becomes a bit complicated. Move JV as part of a deal for an elite 4, we still need a defensive 5. Move JV for a defensive 5 still leaves a hole at 4.

With the backcourt not set to change dramatically, and the system on O and D being designed to fit them on O and protect them on D, the need for a long, athletic, defensively apt frontcourt is the main issue right now.

So, some combo of moves involving JV and bringing back a defensive 5 and a traditional stretch 4 would be the best of both worlds. That's why Noel's name keeps coming up as a possible way to solve the 5 issue without even losing JV (Noel won't cost much). Powell, on the other hand, would provide cap space in addition to adding a young 4/5 with some upside to possibly thrive more in a system built more to his strengths. It wouldn't make sense in isolation, but if the cap space gets you an elite 4 in the offseason, would that make it more palatable? I also think if they wanted Powell they might be able to get him without JV in the package. I can see why someone might think about Powell, but I personally wouldn't take on that risk of upside.

Of course the options don't jump out at anyone or seem obvious; the big, franchise-affecting moves rarely do.

You still don't move JV for capspace unless you're getting picks back in return. If Dallas wants to give us their unprotected first this year, we have to give it serious thought, but that wasn't the proposal.

Besides, and Dan can correct me if I'm wrong, the cap hold on Lowry will still keep us from signing a max deal even if we dump JV and renounce Patterson. Not to mention our luck in free agency is generally garbage; think of all the names bandied about the last couple years and we've ended up with Carroll and Sullinger.

This reminds me of when people were arguing we should let DeMar go for nothing... We can't afford to dump value for the purpose of fit. We need to achieve dual objectives: fit AND value.

[jimmie]

You still don't move JV for capspace unless you're getting picks back in return. If Dallas wants to give us their unprotected first this year, we have to give it serious thought, but that wasn't the proposal.

Besides, and Dan can correct me if I'm wrong, the cap hold on Lowry will still keep us from signing a max deal even if we dump JV and renounce Patterson. Not to mention our luck in free agency is generally garbage; think of all the names bandied about the last couple years and we've ended up with Carroll and Sullinger.

This reminds me of when people were arguing we should let DeMar go for nothing... We can't afford to dump value for the purpose of fit. We need to achieve dual objectives: fit AND value.

Maybe focus less on the actual proposal and more on the concept. All of the things you mention are true, to a degree, but we've all seen crazier things in the NBA in our time than trading JV for cap space to go after what most might consider a pipedream, right?

Edit: And I really don't think Masai is trading JV for cap space, just for the record. Discussing it in theory is not a capital crime, is all I'm saying.

[JawsGT]

trading JV won't create any cap space

[Mapko]

You're confusing has not with can not.

Also, Powell has put up really nice defensive numbers on a bad defensive team this year.

Rick C is a very good coach (hopefully we agree on this);
Mavs are awful this year:
If Powell is a gem, why is not playing 30-35 mins?
Personally, I like Powell, and was hoping we sign him -did not happen.
Lets move on & forget the idea of trading him for JV.