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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Pau Gasol, dude. Where were you this summer?

    Noel would require the team to go deep into the tax, possibly causing them to let Patterson walk. There's paying the tax and then there's paying tens of millions of dollars in tax for a backup C.
    Made a mistake... the snark isn't really necessary mate.

    Again signing Noel wouldn't require us to trade anyone.

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    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      This whole starters don't play against bench players and bench players don't play against starters arguement is terrible.

      Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
      That's what I've been saying. Like nobody ONLY plays against starters and nobody ONLY plays against benches. Teams have totally different rotations from each other. Just a terrible argument.

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      • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
        Yes our perimeter defense will be even slower.
        Sully is very nimble for his size and he knows where to be.

        Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
          This whole starters don't play against bench players and bench players don't play against starters arguement is terrible.

          Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
          But the screen assists, defenses keying on jv as role man or elbow jumpers or jv generally being indispensable to our offence are all true arguments.

          Really we need jv to rebound and specific matchups like Dwight Howard....
          He can exploit post matchups but we barely use him there.

          Comment


          • Lupe wrote: View Post
            That's what I've been saying. Like nobody ONLY plays against starters and nobody ONLY plays against benches. Teams have totally different rotations from each other. Just a terrible argument.
            A team like the bucks is interesting where Henson and Monroe are both bench starters playing 15mins each. Really what you are worried about as the defensive anchor on the team is the opposing teams top player at any position like jabari and Giannis who both play 30+ mins or thereabouts.
            Ultimately it's about our top rivals to get back to the ecf. So maybe dwight/Millsap, kemba, horford, etc. Then Cavs.

            Scola was a starter tho!

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            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
              Sully is very nimble for his size and he knows where to be.

              Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
              He's really not that nimble, although rebounding and strength was part of why JS was played at C it's also that he's not very quick on the perimeter. ..Sully is a decent man on man defender but perimeter and help defence is much tougher for him. There's reason there was admitted concern from Casey earlier this season that he would be able to run out to contest shots and also be able to recover should players drive. He's not Draymond that has the footspeed to beat his man off the dribble, down court or chase down shots - that's a very nimble player.

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              • charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
                Sullinger's presence will change everything.
                Yes. After games, Sully will dominate the player's buffet, thereby helping Kyle stay skinny Lowry.

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                • Lupe wrote: View Post
                  You're not understanding my point. I agree the starting lineup defense would improve. But the bench defense would be worse. You're not changing the amount of time 2Pat is on the court so the defense overall wouldn't change.
                  You have no evidence the bench defence would be hurt. Siakam can't handle starting quality PF's. Giving him more run against backup players should help his confidence and room for error and he and BeBe would be pretty good at covering for each other's mistakes. While JV is not quick enough to clean up Siakam's messes and needs a solid, smart defender like Pat beside him. It's not simply "good defender plays X minutes, that's X minutes of good defence." Fit matters, and with Siakam off the bench we could improve the starting defence drastically and quite possibly take little hit at all to the bench defence. There's no reason at all not to try it and see, with the fit looking good, loads of evidence that the starters would be great, and even some small sample data to at least suggest that the bench unit could be pretty good.

                  This isn't true. The defense doesn't guard him on those shots. He's shot zero shots from outside 10 feet that were very tightly contested (http://stats.nba.com/players/shots-c...mID=1610612761) and only 12 total in the entire season that were tightly contested.
                  That doesn't mean the defence doesn't guard him there, it means he doesn't shoot when they do. Which makes sense - if the opposing team is defending JV there, that leaves the ball handling guard free to attack an undermanned defence, which is exactly what the team wants out of those sets.

                  Any stats to confirm this?
                  Sadly, no. Nylon calculus tracks time against opposing bench/starting players, and bench units typically run in the low 2's (as in, on average is facing about 2 starters in the opposing unit), while starters run close to 4 (with guys like DD and Lowry that get time in both units floating around 3-3.5). They don't track it live, though, and I don't know when they are planning to roll out this year's data, or if they are at all. Obviously no one plays against 5 bench players at a time. But bench players do play most of their minutes with two or fewer starters on the other team facing them, while starters face 4 more often than not. That's a big difference in quality of opponent - and that's based on units, not individuals. So a guy like Nogueira might be facing units with a couple starters, but odds are those opposing starters are not the starting C.

                  Well as of right now that IS what we want him to do offensively. Since we're not talking about trading Jonas for him, he'd be a backup for now. I think he would be able to succeed against starters also, you don't but there's not really any concrete evidence to confirm either viewpoint.
                  I don't see the upside if we are going to use Noel in BeBe's spot. BeBe literally has the highest on-court net rating in the league among regular players. You really can't expect any more success from lineups he is in than we are already getting.

                  I'm not "telling [myself]" anything, you're the one who's telling yourself that acquiring Noel means that JV would have to be moved. We can play both of them. All it means is we then have the option of moving JV for an elite PF in a package should that opportunity arise without having to then start a backup center like Bebe. You're trying to put an ultimatum on something that doesn't have one. No need for it and the unnecessary defense of JV.
                  So this is all to cushion the blow of trading JV for a star? I recommend then, that we don't do it. And just trade JV for a star and sort out the C question after. Who knows? The star might end up being a star C. And you might need those assets you trade for Noel to close the deal for the star.

                  We're not a poor/cheap (in NBA relative terms of course) franchise like OKC is/was. We can afford to pay the luxury tax.
                  I really don't think you are understanding how much tax the Raptors would have to pay if they were to re-sign all of, say, Pat, Lowry and Noel without shedding significant salary in the process. It would be incredible. We're talking operating losses basically no matter how deep they go in the playoffs.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • Dream scenario for me this season would be a 3 team trade or series of trades that land us Cousins for some type of package built around Valanciunas and Nerlens Noel as his replacement at the 5. That'd be a disgusting lineup with Lowry/DD/Carroll/Cousins/Noel.

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                    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                      This whole starters don't play against bench players and bench players don't play against starters arguement is terrible.

                      Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                      Nah, can't agree whatsoever, sorry. This is the main thing about scouts going to games and what everyone calls the eye test when statistics do not back up their argument. There is also who you play with and the variance of individual performances, but who you play against is definitely and obviously important.
                      Last edited by meductic; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 10:24 AM.

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                      • I'm still looking at favors situation. Favors/noel is a good defense, you can use favors at the 5 for plodder matchups, both young, and the price wont gut us.
                        Not ideal and lots of flaws but just considering what actually might be available.
                        I feel like Boston will get boogie at the draft. They'll sell the fanbase on two top 10 picks and few of Boston youth pieces and trade Rudy at the deadline. Ushering in the Papa John's era.

                        Hypothetically, where can we trade jv? Having a hard time finding a team.

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                        • meductic wrote: View Post
                          Nah, can't agree whatsoever, sorry. This is the main thing about scouts going to games and what everyone calls the eye test when statistics do not back up their argument. There is also who you play with and the variance of individual performances, but who you play against is definitely and obviously important.
                          So 2nd units should be glad they don't have to face siakam but happy they gotta match Kyle Lowry?

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                          • lewro wrote: View Post
                            I'm still looking at favors situation. Favors/noel is a good defense, you can use favors at the 5 for plodder matchups, both young, and the price wont gut us.
                            Not ideal and lots of flaws but just considering what actually might be available.
                            I feel like Boston will get boogie at the draft. They'll sell the fanbase on two top 10 picks and few of Boston youth pieces and trade Rudy at the deadline. Ushering in the Papa John's era.

                            Hypothetically, where can we trade jv? Having a hard time finding a team.

                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • DanH wrote: View Post
                              You have no evidence the bench defence would be hurt. Siakam can't handle starting quality PF's. Giving him more run against backup players should help his confidence and room for error and he and BeBe would be pretty good at covering for each other's mistakes. While JV is not quick enough to clean up Siakam's messes and needs a solid, smart defender like Pat beside him. It's not simply "good defender plays X minutes, that's X minutes of good defence." Fit matters, and with Siakam off the bench we could improve the starting defence drastically and quite possibly take little hit at all to the bench defence. There's no reason at all not to try it and see, with the fit looking good, loads of evidence that the starters would be great, and even some small sample data to at least suggest that the bench unit could be pretty good.



                              That doesn't mean the defence doesn't guard him there, it means he doesn't shoot when they do. Which makes sense - if the opposing team is defending JV there, that leaves the ball handling guard free to attack an undermanned defence, which is exactly what the team wants out of those sets.



                              Sadly, no. Nylon calculus tracks time against opposing bench/starting players, and bench units typically run in the low 2's (as in, on average is facing about 2 starters in the opposing unit), while starters run close to 4 (with guys like DD and Lowry that get time in both units floating around 3-3.5). They don't track it live, though, and I don't know when they are planning to roll out this year's data, or if they are at all. Obviously no one plays against 5 bench players at a time. But bench players do play most of their minutes with two or fewer starters on the other team facing them, while starters face 4 more often than not. That's a big difference in quality of opponent - and that's based on units, not individuals. So a guy like Nogueira might be facing units with a couple starters, but odds are those opposing starters are not the starting C.



                              I don't see the upside if we are going to use Noel in BeBe's spot. BeBe literally has the highest on-court net rating in the league among regular players. You really can't expect any more success from lineups he is in than we are already getting.



                              So this is all to cushion the blow of trading JV for a star? I recommend then, that we don't do it. And just trade JV for a star and sort out the C question after. Who knows? The star might end up being a star C. And you might need those assets you trade for Noel to close the deal for the star.



                              I really don't think you are understanding how much tax the Raptors would have to pay if they were to re-sign all of, say, Pat, Lowry and Noel without shedding significant salary in the process. It would be incredible. We're talking operating losses basically no matter how deep they go in the playoffs.
                              Dan, you don't have any evidence for many of the things that you say and yet you declare them as absolutes.

                              Maybe the reason that bebe and siakam look OK in a small sample and we know that bebe and Pat are good but that siakam and jv are not good is because jv is the weak link?
                              Siakam has mental lapses but he actually has the physical skill to play good defense. Jv is slow on reads, lacks physical abilities and has the most responsibilities. When you say clean up siakams messes, well, it's jvs job to clean up everyone's messes but we use pat to clean up jvs messes. That's a problem and if you can't see that than you're protecting him. The fact that you keep ignoring his defensive liabilities and championing his offensive capabilities says to me that you are so enamoured with his TS% that you are ignoring that our defense is the problem. Our offense is fine and jv is not a crucial part of it. We struggle at rebounding bc that is the one thing that pat can't magically save us from and Carroll isn't helping at all. Sully will help and jv is doing a good job. We also need him for big bodies like Howard so he needs to at least be even in that matchup.

                              Second, the upside of having noel has already been explained to you.

                              Third, lowering our payroll is dumping Carroll. We need talent to match our rivals (who also pay for that) and Carroll isn't cutting it. Do you have evidence for mlse financial statements? Their profit margin is that small? If they have to pay $150m to compete with gsw paying $150m than that's the cost of doing business.
                              You have no problem to gut our team and max out a 31 yr old Millsap and a 30yr old Lowry at $60m dollars. But it's out of the question to pay $20m for a 22 yr old proto small ball centre when our own centre looks to be a relic at 24. IF jv is a relic, than we will have to pay through the nose financially and in assets to get a small ball centre. Delon/bebe is not worth it!?

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                              • meductic wrote: View Post
                                Nah, can't agree whatsoever, sorry. This is the main thing about scouts going to games and what everyone calls the eye test when statistics do not back up their argument. There is also who you play with and the variance of individual performances, but who you play against is definitely and obviously important.
                                I understand but, to say that a player doesn't play against starter because he comes off the bench is false.

                                Against Orlando Biz started and Vuccevic(dont how to spell his name) came off the bench. Does that mean that Biz a starter quality player now and Vuccvic is a lesser player now?

                                Sometime starting just comes down to fit. It's not always the better player starting.

                                Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                                Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 11:21 AM.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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