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  • lewro wrote: View Post
    Dan, you don't have any evidence for many of the things that you say and yet you declare them as absolutes.

    Maybe the reason that bebe and siakam look OK in a small sample and we know that bebe and Pat are good but that siakam and jv are not good is because jv is the weak link?
    Siakam has mental lapses but he actually has the physical skill to play good defense. Jv is slow on reads, lacks physical abilities and has the most responsibilities. When you say clean up siakams messes, well, it's jvs job to clean up everyone's messes but we use pat to clean up jvs messes. That's a problem and if you can't see that than you're protecting him. The fact that you keep ignoring his defensive liabilities and championing his offensive capabilities says to me that you are so enamoured with his TS% that you are ignoring that our defense is the problem. Our offense is fine and jv is not a crucial part of it. We struggle at rebounding bc that is the one thing that pat can't magically save us from and Carroll isn't helping at all. Sully will help and jv is doing a good job. We also need him for big bodies like Howard so he needs to at least be even in that matchup.

    Second, the upside of having noel has already been explained to you.

    Third, lowering our payroll is dumping Carroll. We need talent to match our rivals (who also pay for that) and Carroll isn't cutting it. Do you have evidence for mlse financial statements? Their profit margin is that small? If they have to pay $150m to compete with gsw paying $150m than that's the cost of doing business.
    You have no problem to gut our team and max out a 31 yr old Millsap and a 30yr old Lowry at $60m dollars. But it's out of the question to pay $20m for a 22 yr old proto small ball centre when our own centre looks to be a relic at 24. IF jv is a relic, than we will have to pay through the nose financially and in assets to get a small ball centre. Delon/bebe is not worth it!?
    JV is not a relic but his skills suit certain types of game situations better than others. Sports goes in cycles. As an example 10 years ago NFL teams threw the ball maybe 20 times a game. Now its 40 plus on average. So me being me.. but I think the death of the big man in the NBA as Mark Twain writes has been greatly exaggerated. True .. big man post up ball is not as prevalent as it was 10 year ago but its still there and will have a place.

    I know you like Noel and for good reasons... but does the braintrust down at 40 Bay think he makes this team appreciably better than Bebe does regardless of the price paid to get him. If they were to make this move I think the trade would be to slot in Noel for Bebe as they are similar type skill sets. Mobile.. shot blocking ... good on putbacks. JV is less mobile on D but he makes up for it on the offensive end with better range (he has that jumper the other two don't) and he makes his FT's at a higher clip. For me its about having multiple tools in the bag to take on or force matchups and JV comes with a different skill set than Bebe or Noel. Always good to have options.

    So far the GM hasn't made a move and I suspect they won't. Why ? Because in the summer the Raptors war room of Pres/GM/ProScouting/Coaching staff made a move to bring in Jared Sullinger .They saw something they liked and wanted to try out and so far haven't been able to get any kind of a road test done with him in the situations they believed would make the team better just a few months ago.

    So until the Raps see what Sullinger brings to the party (late January/early February maybe ?) they are likely to stay in character and keep their powder dry.

    They still might do a Noel trade if he is still around at the deadline.... but I think there has to be a 3rd team in the mix and Bebe would be one of the players going out, or they will be putting themselves in a front court logjam at C just like the Sixers have. To many good players and too few minutes.

    Between now and February we should see a lot of tinkering with small ball lineups as the Raps chore now is to figure out how to beat the Lebrons in 5 months time by playing both small and big at a really high level and forcing Tyrone Lue to think on his feet how to combat that.
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 11:51 AM.
    I don't normally like a tank. But when I do I prefer a #TampaTank.

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    • lewro wrote: View Post
      So 2nd units should be glad they don't have to face siakam but happy they gotta match Kyle Lowry?
      Go around the league and look at the salaries of your startin 5 as a percentage of your payroll. Enough said. Sure there is always overlaps, match ups, etc... There are always exceptions... but most second units play second unit talent and most teams do not have players logging Demars and Kyle's minutes.
      Last edited by meductic; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 11:56 AM.

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      • Agree with everything you said demo shift.

        This isn't hockey meductic. Top players are all north of 30mins. Serge ibaka plays 30 and there are 78 players ahead of him.
        We use Cory as a key defender vs westbrook and he plays 20-25 mins, for example. Nobody is putting an asterisk next to Cory's mins played.
        Yes, there is a drop off in 2nd unit but it's a middle grey, it's not purely 2nd vs 2nd. It's a consideration in an argument but shouldn't form a basis.

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        • Yeah your right...not only does Cojo's average opponent's capabilities equal those of KL's but continuing with your argument Demarre's numbers should be viewed in the same light as Bruno's because they play the same position in the NBA and therefore the degree of difficulty is constant. Love numbers. One just has to keep improving what they are measuring and to do that you have to keep assessing their weakness and anomalies. Now if you included in your argument a measurement that showed a comprehensive rating of each player opposite another player at any time one is on the floor based on a minute by minute analysis, and these all ended up being equal then I think you might be on to something. Until then I truly believe that considering ones position on the team is legitimate. You believe differently, but you haven't said anything to convince me differently other than there are no line shifts like there are in hockey... Which, well, really didn't need to be said. Anyway... No sense hijacking the trade thread... Agree to disagree..
          Last edited by meductic; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 02:07 PM.

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          • tDotted wrote: View Post
            http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/118...-make-bad-deal

            Stop the madness.. BC's not trading Noel for Bebe/Delon. And Ross is worth way more to this team than Noel would be.
            I skipped over 10 pages but not sure why anyone would think of trading Philly another C like Bebe lol

            Anyway, BC can pretend he has a strong hand but everyone knows his bluffing. And his team is not talented or mature enough (and no coach skilled enough) to handle the Noel-benching distraction for two more months until the trade deadline. Especially when the player can't even prove he's healthy cause he's getting benched - not that publicly complaining about it does any wonders for his image either.

            I wonder if the organization would be better off if BC shipped him out quickly and let the remaining players struggle to win in relative peace. I know no one wants to "lose a trade" but it's almost addition by subtraction at this point.


            The one time he doesn't feel the need to make a trade (so he says) is when it's definitely the best move.
            Two beer away from being two beers away.

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            • meductic wrote: View Post
              Yeah your right...not only does Cojo's average opponent's capabilities equal those of KL's but continuing with your argument Demarre's numbers should be viewed in the same light as Bruno's because they play the same position in the NBA and therefore the degree of difficulty is constant. Love numbers. One just has to keep improving what they are measuring and to do that you have to keep assessing their weakness and anomalies. Now if you included in your argument a measurement that showed a comprehensive rating of each player opposite another player at any time one is on the floor based on a minute by minute analysis, and these all ended up being equal then I think you might be on to something. Until then I truly believe that considering ones position on the team is legitimate. You believe differently, but you haven't said anything to convince me differently other than there are no line shifts like there are in hockey... Which, well, really didn't need to be said. Anyway... No sense hijacking the trade thread... Agree to disagree..
              the comp to demarre isn't bruno, it's norm and ross. both guys are better players atm and should/could be starting ahead of demarre. apparently, that does need to be said.
              yes, we can agree to disagree but i do think there is a middle ground here that we both seem to agree on; starters are typically better than bench guys but there are a lot of variables. hopefully you are satisfied? i am.

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              • Mess wrote: View Post
                I skipped over 10 pages but not sure why anyone would think of trading Philly another C like Bebe lol

                Anyway, BC can pretend he has a strong hand but everyone knows his bluffing. And his team is not talented or mature enough (and no coach skilled enough) to handle the Noel-benching distraction for two more months until the trade deadline. Especially when the player can't even prove he's healthy cause he's getting benched - not that publicly complaining about it does any wonders for his image either.

                I wonder if the organization would be better off if BC shipped him out quickly and let the remaining players struggle to win in relative peace. I know no one wants to "lose a trade" but it's almost addition by subtraction at this point.


                The one time he doesn't feel the need to make a trade (so he says) is when it's definitely the best move.
                Most people had Bebe going to a third team like GSW and them sending a player like McCaw to Philly. Getting two you 1st round propects seems like a great return for Noel at this point.

                Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                @Chr1st1anL

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                • If the 76ers are willing to take a couple of the Raptors young players currently out of the rotation, president Masai Ujiri will have trouble saying no and rolling the dice on Noel. Otherwise, the 76ers are likely to be looking elsewhere.

                  http://probballreport.com/76ers-nerl...raptors-radar/

                  Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                  @Chr1st1anL

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                  • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                    Most people had Bebe going to a third team like GSW and them sending a player like McCaw to Philly. Getting two you 1st round propects seems like a great return for Noel at this point.

                    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                    Most being you and I, iirc.
                    The money doesn't work for McCaw and not sure how much bebe moves the needle for them?
                    Also I see McCaw as a point that can shoot like a 2 and delon as a combo that hasn't found his shot. Some defensive overlap.
                    So if we send delon then he needs a SG or a pick for bebe like lamb. What about bebe for vonleh and send the cavs 1st and clips 1st with delon to Philly?
                    How do people feel about Cory now that fvv had a good showing? Cory has an option in the final yr and we have delon locked on cheap.

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                    • lewro wrote: View Post
                      Most being you and I, iirc.
                      The money doesn't work for McCaw and not sure how much bebe moves the needle for them?
                      Also I see McCaw as a point that can shoot like a 2 and delon as a combo that hasn't found his shot. Some defensive overlap.
                      So if we send delon then he needs a SG or a pick for bebe like lamb. What about bebe for vonleh and send the cavs 1st and clips 1st with delon to Philly?
                      How do people feel about Cory now that fvv had a good showing? Cory has an option in the final yr and we have delon locked on cheap.
                      I still like CoJo most of the three, but yes there are definitely 1-2 movable pieces there. Joseph would have the most trade value and what it would theoretically come down to is whether a package deal needs a more established player with salary to make it work or a prospect thrown in.

                      I'd really like to see Delon play some more minutes this year, doubt that will happen unless there's an injury.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • https://theringer.com/the-nba-might-...dec#.toholv9ar

                        Too many big men in a downsized league.

                        Teams who either need to or would like to move bigs include Philly, Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, Orlando and the Bucks.

                        Final thought in the article

                        Like a lot of the teams on this list, the Bucks would be better off if they could just give some of their centers away. If only the NBA had a place for them to go
                        .
                        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                        • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                          https://theringer.com/the-nba-might-...dec#.toholv9ar

                          Too many big men in a downsized league.

                          Teams who either need to or would like to move bigs include Philly, Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, Orlando and the Bucks.

                          Final thought in the article

                          .
                          i dunno. none of the guys talked about in this article are really very good except for philly's guys (embiid of course, okafor maybe, noel maybe). Obviously nobody is looking to acquire tyson chandler at $13M per year.

                          I think that this is more indicative of the fact that there was too much money floating around and GMs tried to stockpile. middling to sub-par big bodies are no longer valuable, certainly, but this doesn't indicate that basketball is completely going away from the big man. Teams will figure out how to guard 3 point shooters eventually, and when that happens the teams with inside presence are going to rise up again (not that they ever actually were "down", to be honest).
                          Last edited by KHD; Tue Dec 20, 2016, 11:14 PM.

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                          • KHD wrote: View Post
                            i dunno. none of the guys talked about in this article are really very good except for philly's guys (embiid of course, okafor maybe, noel maybe). Obviously nobody is looking to acquire tyson chandler at $13M per year.

                            I think that this is more indicative of the fact that there was too much money floating around and GMs tried to stockpile. middling to sub-par big bodies are no longer valuable, certainly, but this doesn't indicate that basketball is completely going away from the big man. Teams will figure out how to guard 3 point shooters eventually, and when that happens the teams with inside presence are going to rise up again (not that they ever actually were "down", to be honest).
                            Vucs career stats and contract are similar to jv. Not sure where vuc goes?
                            I asked here, what's the market for jv and nobody responded. Tjarks is right when he said that Monroe had interest in FA and now nobody wants him.

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                            • lewro wrote: View Post
                              Vucs career stats and contract are similar to jv. Not sure where vuc goes?
                              I asked here, what's the market for jv and nobody responded. Tjarks is right when he said that Monroe had interest in FA and now nobody wants him.
                              To me, the issue with presenting a JV trade is that it is early in the season and any team that would want him likely would be changing styles a bit. Essentially, no team plays an inside out game without a dominate big man and not team with a dominant big man is trying to trade for JV. I dont think I will come up with good trades, but I think JV would look good on the Wiz, Mavs, Spurs, Hawks, any team with shooters.

                              Maybe: Howard + Sefolosha for JV + Ross (with pick swap?) - Danger in PnR and in post ups, with Atlanta shooters getting open on doubles
                              Porter Jr + Wiz 1st + filler for JV - Wall/JV PnR would be scary, with Beal and free agent shooters spreading the floor on post ups

                              Not sure its fair to ask any of us what the market for a player is, but if you are saying that JV is a useless scrub, I disagree. Replace Howard and JV on Atlanta and thats a good example of how JV should (imo) fit in the league. PG good at the PnR, with shooters everywhere for JV post ups (though admittedly JV still needs to become a better passer here)

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                              • KHD wrote: View Post
                                Teams will figure out how to guard 3 point shooters eventually, and when that happens the teams with inside presence are going to rise up again (not that they ever actually were "down", to be honest).
                                Wouldn't hold my breath.

                                [IMG] [/IMG]
                                If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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