Everything Trade Chatter

[3inthekeon]

Did anyone mention Okafor responding to the vote of confidence by putting up an 0 for 10 FG performance against the powerhouse Nets last night?

[JamesNaismith]

I'd trade either CoJo or Delon plus Bebe for Noel. Preferably CoJo imo, ppl are sleeping on Delon because he hasn't been given barely any burn but if you actually think of the times he did he was very solid. He's a better passer and rebounder than Corey and I know Joseph has solid defence but Wright was an elite one throughout college. I think he just needs to get more comfortable with experience/playing time and we'll see just how slept on he is. The kid has crazy anticipation in passing lanes and digging in as a help defender not to mention his height will make his time on court with Lowry more effective because he can adequately guard SGs and unlike Corey will be better at passing. But if necessary I trade him.

Noel is the definition of buy low right now. Comparing him to Bebe is a joke. He is 10x quicker and can guard the perimeter much better not to mention actually get steals. Lowry n DD will have a ball just lobbing the ball up to Noel all day. As long as we don't have to include a 1st rd pick (2nd is ok) then please get this done then trade JV for that big upgrade at PF.

[Ebonhawke]

Did anyone mention Okafor responding to the vote of confidence by putting up an 0 for 10 FG performance against the powerhouse Nets last night?

The power of Scola and his old-man game. Also, taking a look at Okafor's shot chart from last night, he missed 5 shots inside the restricted area.

[lewro]

We're starting siakam so noel is an upgrade at pf.
Noel is real weapon on perimeter defense. He's quick with a long reach, gets steals, natural IQ. The combo of him and Pat would greatly help our team defense. We'd also get a very different look with Noel/Sully. We need to upgrade talent to compete with the contenders.
In the playoffs if we play Detroit, hawks then we would rely on jv but noel is better suited to Charlotte, Boston and the cavs front line for defense. The rest of the teams we can beat either way.

[lewro]

Just wondering. With page after page of this Noel argument going on, has anyone been convinced to change their mind?

Didn't think so.

More people are showing interest now.

[lewro]

There are some obvious ways to dramatically improve the defence already on the roster. Perhaps we should try those before deciding we need to bail on a winning formula to maybe improve the defence enough to make up for the lost offence.

Lol. I want your crystal ball. Maybe the defence improves but 100℅ the offence tanks. What's the next winning lotto numbers?

[S.R.]

They've said Noel's value is fairly low. Might be laughable to you but who knows how low exactly that value is right now. And I included a draft pick btw.

It's not going to get back to #10. Not just as simple as moving your feet. Defense is only partially effort. Schemes and actual defensive ability/athleticism make up a larger portion of an effective defense. Players are going to get blown by, the average keep in front % in the league for guards is only something like 40%. That's the reality.

Using Orlando, one of the absolute worst offensive teams in the league as some sort of gauge that our defense can be top 10 when guys "try" is really just poor analysis.

I didn't use Orlando as a direct argument for getting to top 10, I think this team should aim for a #10 defense as a realistic goal because they're good enough to aim for that goal. What I said about the Orlando game is we can see the dramatic difference, within one half of basketball, made by perimeter players who actually "just try." Don't be too dismissive of defensive effort. It's a cliche for a good reason, and the Raptors haven't been putting the effort in often enough this season. Feel free to show me otherwise.

People forget that Bebe and Wright themselves are former 1st round picks. Both mid-late 1sts in drafts that were just as recent (2013 for Bebe and Noel) or more recent (2015 for Wright) than Noel's. Plus we're talking about throwing in another pick. It's not some trash offer.

Didn't say it was a trash offer man, and nobody's forgotten Bebe/Wright's draft position. Just said the league-wide perceived value of Nerlens Noel is quite a bit higher than Bebe/Wright and the package you suggested likely won't get the deal done. You don't need to assume people are lacking information when they disagree with you. Just my opinion.

[lewro]

When has Noel ever made it seem like he could be a C in the middle of a top notch offence? And when are we going to get a chance to be fully confident he can start before we trade JV? We'd be trading assets for this guy, who we'll potentially have to give a boatload of money to to keep, and we probably have to make that choice before we get any real sample of him starting. He comes in and kills it off the bench, well, he's not doing any better than BeBe has.

And if a big name like that becomes available, you make the trade anyway and deal with the C position after.

His field goal percentage at the rim is right around deandre, at a younger age. 71℅ playing with TJ McConnell, et al, not Chris Paul. Lowry can play that way. Did we talk about this? If bebe can get more screen assists than jv per 36 in our offense than noel can too.
Our offense is fine. Defense not so much. Noel is not gonna tank our offense. The question is more about cost to acquire and resign.

[3inthekeon]

More people are showing interest now.

You're the spokesman for who exactly?

If you've convinced anyone to change their mind, they can speak for themselves.

[lewro]

I didn't use Orlando as a direct argument for getting to top 10, I think this team should aim for a #10 defense as a realistic goal because they're good enough to aim for that goal. What I said about the Orlando game is we can see the dramatic difference, within one half of basketball, made by perimeter players who actually "just try." Don't be too dismissive of defensive effort. It's a cliche for a good reason, and the Raptors haven't been putting the effort in often enough this season. Feel free to show me otherwise.



Didn't say it was a trash offer man, and nobody's forgotten Bebe/Wright's draft position. Just said the league-wide perceived value of Nerlens Noel is quite a bit higher than Bebe/Wright and the package you suggested likely won't get the deal done. You don't need to assume people are lacking information when they disagree with you. Just my opinion.

Which team has the better offer? Noel is worth more in a vacuum but there's context. For what I gather they're forcing him to be a practice player until they find a trade. Seems the narrative of 8 min man was insulting to richaun holmes so he's the 3rd center now and they don't want Noel around.

[lewro]

You're the spokesman for who exactly?

If you've convinced anyone to change their mind, they can speak for themselves.

Are you angry? Just noting the increase in yes posts. I'm stating my opinion bc I like the discussion. Everyone has their own opinion. Not like it matters to Masai.

[3inthekeon]

Are you angry? Just noting the increase in yes posts. I'm stating my opinion bc I like the discussion. Everyone has their own opinion. Not like it matters to Masai.

Not angry at all. Just amused.

[psrs1]

this is the OP. What ground rules? Trade Chatter means Legit Trade Rumour Attached to the Raptors? I mean, nobody really knows anything except for Woj when something is actually done because he buys the intel. Other than that its just stein, lowe, etc. drinking wine with league execs and the like. No?

I think we need Abbas to weigh in on trade chatter--I hear he has good sources.

[DanH]

I added some stuff to my post after you replied.

Those "obvious ways" won't work. Slaw made a few very good comments on this in the "How do we fix our defense?" thread. You play conservatively on pick and rolls against a team like the Cavs who run a ton of high pick and roll (which you cannot ice, the sideline is not available to be the "help defender") with two of the most devastating on-ball players in the game in LeBron and Kyrie and you might as well just not even bother playing defense at all. Free baskets. On top of that if you don't have bigs that can get out on shooters, what are we going to do against Frye and Love? Just dare them to shoot? Recipe for disaster.

And we're not really bailing on anything. Not trading a single key rotational piece except Bebe who Noel is better than and would be replacing. I'm not talking about trading Ross or 2Pat here or even Valanciunas. Talking about acquiring Noel. And all his attributes suggest he would fit this system excellently while having great defensive upside. These are the kind of moves that teams that don't have access to superstars in free agency have to look to make to get an edge. Hell we've already done it once with Kyle Lowry (who ended up being way better than what we thought we were trading for once he got the reigns) and it wasn't like we gave up nothing for him that pick could've been Giannis.

Low risk, potentially very high reward, and we have 100% control of him contractually.

Those obvious ways I referenced were not system changes. Just start Pat. Problem solved. Starting lineup DRTG drops 8-10 points overnight and the bench is still probably about as good.

Saying that Noel can do everything JV is asked to do is a little suspect. Noel crashing the glass is nothing like JV crashing the glass - Noel's career (and flat in both seasons) 8% OREB% pales in comparison to JV's recent 13%. His career high 22% DREB% is also not up to JV's 26%. You think this team is hurting on the boards now? Just you wait until you plug a mediocre rebounder at C in JV's elite rebounding place.

The team also asks JV to occasional midrange jumpers when the defence collapses on driving guards. He takes 2 catch and shoot midrange jumpers a game and makes them at a near-50% clip. Last season Noel was asked to do the same thing for the 76ers, he took 1.2 attempts per game, and made less than 30% of them.

The Raptors also ask JV to post up about 3 times a game, and he converts at about 1 PPP on those (75th percentile). They occasionally need to dump the ball into the post to get a reliable score when the wings need a possession off of driving to the hole. Noel last season posted up very rarely (just over once per game) and managed a truly abysmal 0.68 PPP (21st percentile).

JV operates as a real threat in the pick and roll, both as a scoring option and, due to that, a good decoy to free up space for the guards. He gets hit on the roll about twice a game, and converts at very efficient 1.2 PPP (80th percentile), and in the meantime racks up 4.2 screen assists per game. Last season, Noel got a chance to score on the roll about twice a game as well, but put up a very sub-par 0.9 PPP (34th percentile) in what is traditionally a very high efficiency play once you get the ball to the rolling big man. Sadly we have no screen assist data on Noel as he was not in the playoffs last year, and has played only 9 minutes this year.

So it seems like Noel CAN in fact do all the stuff JV is asked to do offensively - just nowhere near as well as JV can do any of it.

Let's not pretend this wouldn't cause a significant change to the way teams play us on the pick and roll. This would be a trade off of offence for defence, not the status quo or anywhere close to it on offence.

[S.R.]

I'm wondering where some of you guys who are suggesting turning over 2/5 of the starting roster value continuity right now. Obviously I'm not advocating for never making a transaction again, but this team has made a very strong case for the value of keeping personnel (and their coach) together. Individual players are getting better every year and the team is getting better every year. For me, that's a significant factor in being lukewarm on anything that looks like a risk of a lateral move. This team is not at a stage to make a major transaction just to "try something and see if they get better." A major transaction needs to be a clear win for the franchise and a significant next-step move.