Everything Trade Chatter

[lewro]

Yeah, if im atl then i want powell but he doesn't help much with salary so Ross makes sense. Ross is playing well but his history of shitting the bed in the playoffs makes me skeptical. At least norm played well vs Indy.
ATL also dangled horford for a king's ransom last yr. They weren't really serious about trading him and millsap has more value.

In terms of dreb℅

Jv 27, pat 17, noel 22, Millsap 21, sully 27

We already struggle with DRebs this yr.

[JamesNaismith]

I really don't want to part with Ross but would if push comes to shove but I definitely don't want to give BOTH picks. Sorry but that is actually an overpay for a guy we're not guaranteed to keep. Ross + Sully + CoJo + a pick and ATL has made away like bandits in that trade for a guy who wasn't going to stick around anyways.

I'd also like that next year's pick too so we have a couple more pieces from a deeper draft developing next year and likely better talent and we sell ATL on that we run the risk Millsap walks then we have a huge hole as we lost him not to mention our back up PG and SG so that pick could supposedly be better.

[tDotted]

Have just gone through this thread since it got lit last night. The ideas are all over the place. Anyone feel like doing the heavy lifting on looking at past precedents for this with the essential components "all star" and "rental" being equally important?

Quick search shows me Gary Payton in 2003. Bucks traded Ray Allen to get him for only half the season.

[JamesNaismith]

This is a much simpler trade. Hawks turn an expiring Millsap into a bevy of young talent with an immediate replacement at PF. Picks can be added. It might be giving up too much, actually.



http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jufkl5p

If we give up 2 young guys, we should not give ANY picks unless it's a 2nd rounder.

This is a player that is going to leave them (period).

Netting 2 decent young prospects, a potentially up and coming SG (Ross looks a lot more consistent this year) and a PF replacement is more than adequate considering PM likely has zero intention of returning to ATL and we on the other hand will need some rookie contracts just to manage our salary in the coming years. Funny thing is in a trade like this one that you just proposed we could likely recoup some of the loss right away in the draft, I can think of several names that may be as good, if not better at the guard positions and there is some talent at the forward position that will likely be around. I like this trade (pick free) the most out of any I've seen yet.

[Scraptor]

Even moreso since getting him would likely mean losing Ross and/or Patterson. Now if it was on a deal based around Carroll and Sullinger; I might be singing a different toon.

Don't bring Roger Rabbit into this.

Seriously though, if we can't agree that losing one of Ross and/or Patterson for a guy like Paul Millsap is a no-brainer, we are never going to get anywhere.

We have a great replacement for Ross in Powell.
Patterson is an expiring, just like Millsap. We would have Bird rights for either player.

You have to give value to get value. And from the rumors it sounds like Atlanta's asking price is very high.

This is from the very reliable Hawks beat writer Chris Vivlamore:

The other interesting thing you will hear during the next two months is that the Hawks’ asking price was too high. You don’t say? Should general manager Wes Wilcox ask for less than Millsap, or another player, is worth. I believe he is likely to ask for as much as he can get.

We will almost certainly have steep competition for Millsap. And it's a buyer's market for our most valuable piece, JV (not to mention Poeltl). So to give up Ross and Patterson should not only be on the table, but we should thank our lucky stars if they were to take that (plus Poeltl and picks).

The real question is... Do you want to pay $70 million to Kyle and Millsap in their mid-30s?

[S.R.]

ATL might be the only team in the league willing to take on Carroll and see it as a positive.

[JamesNaismith]

ATL might be the only team in the league willing to take on Carroll and see it as a positive.

After re-signing Bazemore and drafting Taureun Prince, not likely.

[Scraptor]

If we give up 2 young guys, we should not give ANY picks unless it's a 2nd rounder.

This is a player that is going to leave them (period).

Netting 2 decent young prospects, a potentially up and coming SG (Ross looks a lot more consistent this year) and a PF replacement is more than adequate considering PM likely has zero intention of returning to ATL and we on the other hand will need some rookie contracts just to manage our salary in the coming years. Funny thing is in a trade like this one that you just proposed we could likely recoup some of the loss right away in the draft, I can think of several names that may be as good, if not better at the guard positions and there is some talent at the forward position that will likely be around. I like this trade (pick free) the most out of any I've seen yet.

To play devil's advocate, here is how the Hawks would look at this:

Ross is a nice role player but little more. We just got burned by investing in one of these guys, Bazemore, and hoping he would be able to carry a bigger load. He wasn't.
Sullinger has no value.
Poeltl is an okay prospect. He might not go in the lottery in this draft and plays a position of relative depth in the NBA.
Wright is going to be 25 and has 200 minutes under his belt. Marginal value at best.

Then you're refusing to add:
Raps pick has marginal value as a late first-rounder.
Clippers pick has potential for some value if Paul stays out and they keep losing. But it isn't a sure thing by any means.

So as soon as you offer me these meh pieces, I hang up the phone and call Denver, who would probably beat this offer with their own pick. Or see what any number of other teams might offer. Teague got me a first last year, and even though he had a bit longer left on his deal (a full year instead of a few months), Millsap is much, much better, even if he is older.

[JamesNaismith]

Don't bring Roger Rabbit into this.

Seriously though, if we can't agree that losing one of Ross and/or Patterson for a guy like Paul Millsap is a no-brainer, we are never going to get anywhere.

We have a great replacement for Ross in Powell.
Patterson is an expiring, just like Millsap. We would have Bird rights for either player.

You have to give value to get value. And from the rumors it sounds like Atlanta's asking price is very high.

This is from the very reliable Hawks beat writer Chris Vivlamore:



We will almost certainly have steep competition for Millsap. And it's a buyer's market for our most valuable piece, JV (not to mention Poeltl). So to give up Ross and Patterson should not only be on the table, but we should thank our lucky stars if they were to take that (plus Poeltl and picks).

The real question is... Do you want to pay $70 million to Kyle and Millsap in their mid-30s?

Agreed on the 1st part and I think Ross is the guy out of anyone on the roster that would be guaranteed to be part of any deal for Millsap. But I actually don't think there will be steep competition especially if ATL has a high asking price. There aren't a lot of teams that are in the right position to go after him and what I mean by that is Paul is an old player so if you're gambling on him and paying him a big extension his arrival has to mean either contending for a ring or being able to push you deep into the Playoffs and I can only think of maybe 2-3 teams that fit that bill, BOS and OKC being the main culprits and I only think OKC is the actual threat.

BOS won't wanna give up their Nets' picks and once they have to gut their young team (due to salary matching) is Thomas, Millsap and Horford really THAT much better and a contender and this was the big return for KG and PP?! Not bloody likely, Ainge will get some all-star talent this draft and potentially next one and continue to work on the future unless someone like PG becomes available. OKC on the otherhand could offer Kanter who is locked in, maybe Grant and their pick (maybe 2) but that imo really doesn't sound that much better, if at all, than us giving Ross, CoJo, Sully + a pick...in fact I like our offering a lot better.

[S.R.]

To play devil's advocate, here is how the Hawks would look at this:

Ross is a nice role player but little more. We just got burned by investing in one of these guys, Bazemore, and hoping he would be able to carry a bigger load. He wasn't.
Sullinger has no value.
Poeltl is an okay prospect. He might not go in the lottery in this draft and plays a position of relative depth in the NBA.
Wright is going to be 25 and has 200 minutes under his belt. Marginal value at best.

Then you're refusing to add:
Raps pick has marginal value as a late first-rounder.
Clippers pick has potential for some value if Paul stays out and they keep losing. But it isn't a sure thing by any means.

So as soon as you offer me these meh pieces, I hang up the phone and call Denver, who would probably beat this offer with their own pick. Or see what any number of other teams might offer. Teague got me a first last year, and even though he had a bit longer left on his deal (a full year instead of a few months), Millsap is much, much better, even if he is older.

I agree, Toronto basically offering a basketful of bench players for an All-Star is not getting it done unless we're much closer to the trade deadline and ATL is running out of time + options.

[S.R.]

After re-signing Bazemore and drafting Taureun Prince, not likely.

I don't know they're that happy with their wing play, are they? They also want to move Korver. Could depend on the other moving parts, I guess.

[Majesiu]

Have just gone through this thread since it got lit last night. The ideas are all over the place. Anyone feel like doing the heavy lifting on looking at past precedents for this with the essential components "all star" and "rental" being equally important?

On my way, I'll try to review last 3 years (longer period doesn't really makes sense, CBA change as well as different impact of analytics), and criteria is as follows: mid season (after start of the season, before trade deadline) deal for an immediate upgrade player (not necessarily an all-star, but at least sure starter) on an expiring deal. Surely missed something but here is the list:

December 9, 2013	Sacramento Kings	Toronto Raptors		The Sacramento Kings traded Chuck Hayes, Patrick Patterson, John Salmons and Greivis Vasquez to the Toronto Raptors for Quincy Acy, Rudy Gay and Aaron Gray.
January 6, 2014	Chicago Bulls	Cleveland Cavaliers		The Chicago Bulls traded Luol Deng to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Andrew Bynum, a 2014 1st round draft pick, a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Sir'Dominic Pointer was later selected) and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. (1st-round pick is from SAC and is top-12 protected in 2014, top-10 protected from 2015-17; becoming a 2nd-round pick if not conveyed by 2017) Chicago has the option to swap 1st round draft picks with Cleveland in 2015 (if Cleveland's selection is within 15-30)
January 7, 2014	Boston Celtics	Memphis Grizzlies	Oklahoma City Thunder	In a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Courtney Lee and a 2016 2nd round draft pick to the Memphis Grizzlies; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Jerryd Bayless to the Boston Celtics; the Memphis Grizzlies traded a 2014 2nd round draft pick and a 2017 2nd round draft pick to the Oklahoma City Thunder; the Oklahoma City Thunder traded Ryan Gomes to the Boston Celtics; and the Oklahoma City Thunder traded cash to the Memphis Grizzlies. (2014 2nd-rd pick was top-50 and 56-60 protected and was not conveyed) (2017 2nd-rd pick is top-35 protected in 2017 & unprotected in 2018)
December 18, 2014	Boston Celtics	Dallas Mavericks		Boston Celtics traded Dwight Powell and Rajon Rondo to the Dallas Mavericks for Jae Crowder, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2016 1st round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. (Boston also receives $13M trade exception.)
January 5, 2015	Cleveland Cavaliers	New York Knicks	Oklahoma City Thunder	In a 3-team trade, the Cleveland Cavaliers traded Lou Amundson, Alex Kirk and a 2019 2nd round draft pick to the New York Knicks; the Cleveland Cavaliers traded Dion Waiters to the Oklahoma City Thunder; the New York Knicks traded Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith to the Cleveland Cavaliers; the Oklahoma City Thunder traded a 2016 1st round draft pick to the Cleveland Cavaliers; and the Oklahoma City Thunder traded Lance Thomas to the New York Knicks.
January 7, 2015	Cleveland Cavaliers	Denver Nuggets		The Cleveland Cavaliers traded a 2016 1st round draft pick and a future 1st round draft pick to the Denver Nuggets for Timofey Mozgov and a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Sir'Dominic Pointer was later selected). (CLE sends pair of 1st-Rd picks to DEN. One of the picks is from OKC, which is top-18 protected in 2015 & top-15 protected afterwards. The other pick is from MEM & is conveyed if between 6-14 in 2015 or 2016 & and is top-5 protected in 2017 & 2018).
February 19, 2015	Miami Heat	New Orleans Pelicans	Phoenix Suns	In a 3-team trade, the Miami Heat traded Norris Cole, Justin Hamilton and Shawne Williams to the New Orleans Pelicans; the Miami Heat traded Danny Granger, a 2017 1st round draft pick and a 2021 1st round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns; the New Orleans Pelicans traded John Salmons to the Phoenix Suns; and the Phoenix Suns traded Goran Dragic and Zoran Dragic to the Miami Heat. (2017 1st-round pick is top-7 protected)
February 19, 2015	Milwaukee Bucks	Phoenix Suns	Philadelphia 76ers	In a 3-team trade, the Milwaukee Bucks traded Brandon Knight and Kendall Marshall to the Phoenix Suns; the Philadelphia 76ers traded Michael Carter-Williams to the Milwaukee Bucks; the Phoenix Suns traded Tyler Ennis and Miles Plumlee to the Milwaukee Bucks; and the Phoenix Suns traded a future 1st round draft pick to the Philadelphia 76ers. (PHI 1st round pick received from PHO is LAL's and is top-5 protected in 2015 and top-3 protected in 2016 & 2017.)
February 19, 2015	Detroit Pistons	Oklahoma City Thunder	Utah Jazz	In a 3-team trade, the Detroit Pistons traded D.J. Augustin, Kyle Singler and a 2019 2nd round draft pick to the Oklahoma City Thunder; the Detroit Pistons traded a 2017 2nd round draft pick to the Utah Jazz; the Oklahoma City Thunder traded Reggie Jackson to the Detroit Pistons; the Oklahoma City Thunder traded Grant Jerrett, Kendrick Perkins, Tibor Pleiss and a 2017 1st round draft pick to the Utah Jazz; and the Utah Jazz traded Enes Kanter and Steve Novak to the Oklahoma City Thunder. (UTA 1st round pick received from OKC is protected.)
February 19, 2015	Boston Celtics	Detroit Pistons	Phoenix Suns	In a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Tayshaun Prince to the Detroit Pistons; the Boston Celtics traded Marcus Thornton and a 2016 1st round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns; the Detroit Pistons traded Gigi Datome and Jonas Jerebko to the Boston Celtics; and the Phoenix Suns traded Isaiah Thomas to the Boston Celtics. (PHO 2016 1st round pick received from BOS is CLE's pick and is top-10 protected.)

Some of them are not necessary rentals - IT have 2 more years on the contract, Mozgov had one more year.

Most comparable one seems to be Luol Deng (distinction being we are contending, so ATL might not like strengthening us, both were/are aging all-stars, team selling plans to retool not rebuild). Price was only draft picks, but Milsap is being worth more, and CHI needed picks not players at the time (at least CLE didn't have anything to offer in that department). All these trades might suggest that offers like Ross + Sully + Prospect + Pick are reasonable ones.

[Chr1s1anL]

Aren't the raptors going to waive Van Fleet when Wright is heathly? That would give us an extra roster spot.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[JamesNaismith]

To play devil's advocate, here is how the Hawks would look at this:

Ross is a nice role player but little more. We just got burned by investing in one of these guys, Bazemore, and hoping he would be able to carry a bigger load. He wasn't.
Sullinger has no value.
Poeltl is an okay prospect. He might not go in the lottery in this draft and plays a position of relative depth in the NBA.
Wright is going to be 25 and has 200 minutes under his belt. Marginal value at best.

Then you're refusing to add:
Raps pick has marginal value as a late first-rounder.
Clippers pick has potential for some value if Paul stays out and they keep losing. But it isn't a sure thing by any means.

So as soon as you offer me these meh pieces, I hang up the phone and call Denver, who would probably beat this offer with their own pick. Or see what any number of other teams might offer. Teague got me a first last year, and even though he had a bit longer left on his deal (a full year instead of a few months), Millsap is much, much better, even if he is older.

Why would DEN make a trade for Millsap?! lol

They have a bunch of PFs (Jokic, Faried, Hernangomez, Arthur, heck even Chandler and Gallo can play there too), Jokic most notably and they are a young team rushing out to get Millsap and relegating Jokic to back up makes no sense at all. Teague being YOUNGER (most importantly) and with more time on his contract makes a HUGE difference.

You're getting a year versus a few months and you're talking about a player that is only going to enter his prime versus one that is already out of his and if you watched him this season is in a clear physical decline. Not to mention he's a big man, go look at the history of some of the top PFs after the age of 32 (which he will be next year) like Webber, Barkley, Garnett etc. With their bigger bodies a lot of them start struggling with injuries around 33/34. You can nitpick what we send but those are all some decent young players which can be developed and none of them are in their prime yet.

If you must throw in a SINGLE pick so be it (and again I would try to make it next year's) I guess but Millsap is a much bigger gamble than some make and the market isn't anywhere near as vast imo as some think because you're taking a risk on an old big man looking for his last big contract that history says won't likely be that great in the last couple years...which means whatever team takes him on should want to win big now. There's only a handful of teams like that and their realistic trade offerings aren't likely to be big hauls either or they won't remain a true contender hence why you hear things like "ATL is asking for too much". They are either going to swallow their pride and get something not ideal in return or nothing at all. Hopefully they learned from losing Horford for nothing, something is better than nothing.

[Axel]

Here's my best guess prediction on any Millsap trade for the Raps:

Ross, CoJo and Poeltl for
Millsap, Hardaway, Muscala

Ross is an ideal asset for Atlanta - young enough but proven shooter locked up long term.

CoJo played for Coach Bud in San Antonio and would certainly improve their bench and fit their system.

Poeltl is a lotto pick rookie that gives them a long term option up front or an option if they decide to move Dwight as well.

Hardaway would likely be someone they want to keep but could be expendable with Ross taking his role. Muscala is an active body and makes sure Atlanta doesn't need to eat salary. We are taking on a lot of risk with taking on 3 players who are free agents at season's end but Millsap is worth the risk. Hardaway provides some shooting with Ross's departure and depth for when Carroll gets hurt/sits (essentially filling Powell's current role). FVV has to hold the backup PG spot until Delon returns. No picks exchanged but 2nd rounders could be used to grease the deal.

Sets us up with
Lowry/ FVV/Delon
DD/THjr
Carroll/ Powell
Millsap/PPatt/Sully
JV/Bebe/Siakam

Could look to move Sully and/or Siakam for PG depth.