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When do we pass the mantle of Best all time Raptor ?

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  • #31
    enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Any chance VORP and win shares are inflated for good players on bad teams? Something like: Bosh contributed more to winning than Derozan because Derozan has teammates who also contribute to the win?
    WS in particular are actually suppressed for players on bad teams, as team on-court ratings tend to be pretty bad and they play into the WS calculation. VORP in theory isolates the bad team effect but no stat is perfect - nonetheless I haven't seen anything showing that there is an inherent skew to players on bad teams.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #32
      DanH wrote: View Post
      WS in particular are actually suppressed for players on bad teams, as team on-court ratings tend to be pretty bad and they play into the WS calculation. VORP in theory isolates the bad team effect but no stat is perfect - nonetheless I haven't seen anything showing that there is an inherent skew to players on bad teams.
      I'm not so sure I trust VORP isolating the bad team from the brilliance of an individual player. For instance, Anthony Davis has a VORP of 0.4, which is baffling considering how much he has to do to keep his team competitive on a nightly basis. He measures out horribly in win shares too, barely cobbling together 0.5 OWS and 0.5 DWS. No metric is foolproof, but both metrics really punish him for playing on a bad team.

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      • #33
        Sinbad wrote: View Post
        I'm not so sure I trust VORP isolating the bad team from the brilliance of an individual player. For instance, Anthony Davis has a VORP of 0.4, which is baffling considering how much he has to do to keep his team competitive on a nightly basis. He measures out horribly in win shares too, barely cobbling together 0.5 OWS and 0.5 DWS. No metric is foolproof, but both metrics really punish him for playing on a bad team.
        Huh? WS and VORP are cumulative stats, so this early in the season those are amazing numbers. He's 5th in the league in total WS and VORP right now. His WS is almost certainly suppressed by his bad team to some degree though - his production is otherworldly. And BPM/VORP stats this early in the season are basically useless - they need bigger samples to be remotely meaningful.

        Last season Davis only played in 62 games and still nearly broke the top 30 in WS.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • #34
          DanH wrote: View Post
          Huh? WS and VORP are cumulative stats, so this early in the season those are amazing numbers. He's 5th in the league in total WS and VORP right now. His WS is almost certainly suppressed by his bad team to some degree though - his production is otherworldly. And BPM/VORP stats this early in the season are basically useless - they need bigger samples to be remotely meaningful.

          Last season Davis only played in 62 games and still nearly broke the top 30 in WS.
          I'm aware that VORP and WS are cumulative. I simply thought that the insane numbers he is putting up would account for more. Also, do actual wins have an effect on WS? They've yet to win a game, which definitely skews things.
          Last edited by Sinbad; Thu Nov 3, 2016, 05:34 PM.

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          • #35
            TRex wrote: View Post
            I always look at Bosh as the Shareef Abdur Rahim of the Raptors. Great player, great scorer on a mediocre/treadmill team.
            Shareef never made the playoffs as the main man or "centerpiece", this is an insult to Bosh.

            SRSLY, you still made a good point

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            • #36
              Kobe is the best Raptor of all time.

              Dropped 81 on us and then passed off his spirit to DeMar for this season.

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              • #37
                Sinbad wrote: View Post
                I'm aware that VORP and WS are cumulative. I simply thought that the insane numbers he is putting up would account for more. Also, do actual wins have an effect on WS? They've yet to win a game, which definitely skews things.
                Actual wins don't, but actual point differential when on the floor does. This is what I was saying - WS are suppressed for players on bad teams - not by a lot, but by a bit (look through Davis' WS history and you'll see a couple insane seasons in spite of not being on great teams). The entire point of VORP is to judge a player's performance relative to his teammates and opponents, and should be pretty isolated from team success.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • #38
                  Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  Peak still goes Vince then Lowry/Bosh then DeMar.

                  But by the end of the season DeMar will have taken the overall mantle imo. Barring injury, he will likely be number one for the franchise in the following categories:

                  Games played
                  Minutes played
                  Points
                  Field goals
                  Free throws

                  He should move into the top 5 for rebounds and assists. Number 3 for steals (assuming Lowry passes him and takes number 2).

                  Playoff performance will go a long way in cementing his status.

                  Kyle can also move ahead of Vince/Bosh in a year or two imo.
                  One more good playoff run with improved shooting percentage and he surpasses CB4 and VC.

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                  • #39
                    Vince, Bosh, Demar are the current rankings for me.

                    Bosh was perennially underrated in the NBA, while his HOF candidacy is buoyed by his rings in Miami, his production here is still a huge part of it. Hard to fault him for wins when his tenure included the flaming garbage around him. His first All-Star season (his 3rd season) had the Raptors start Araujo for 34 games, Joey Graham for 24 games, Pape Sow for 25 games and Mike James playing 37 minutes per night. Then they drafted Bargnani. To accomplish all he did despite his teammates was very impressive.

                    Demar has been great so far this season but it took him longer and was surrounded by much more talent, plus played a significantly easier position for a raw rookie stepping in (he didn't have to bang inside with players much bigger on a regular basis and was never forced to defend much).

                    There is still a significant gap between the two. Bosh is closer to Vince than Demar is to Bosh in my view.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • #40
                      planetmars wrote: View Post
                      Vince had 6.. so Lowry is not far off.. ultimately it comes down to playoff success. And Lowry has had more. He got the team to the ECF. Best Vince ever did was help win a 5 game series, and went 7 games in round 2.

                      Lowry isn't there yet, but its close for me. If he finishes this season in 75+ games and helps get the team to round 2 again, he's ahead of Vince in my opinion.
                      Before I respond to the Lowry/Vince comparison, I would say that I think DeRozan has a high chance of going down as the best Raptor of all time. He's nowhere near the stature of Lowry, but because of the combination of starting his career with us, his improvement year after year, his likelihood of being a Raptor for his entire career (or at least until 2021), and just the general 'climate' of this franchise at this time/era he has every opportunity to take over that mantle. Lowry really put it all together when he turned 27. DeRozan is just 27 now.. long way to go.

                      Going back to Lowry/Vince, I would argue that it does not ultimately come down to playoff success. Look, it's just tough to compare individual players based on a franchise's success stories. Lowry has been a key figure in our amazing run last year and the year before and yes, Vince's Raptors never came close to that. But let's not forget about the differences between this team and the 6+ seasons of Vince's Raptors.

                      The Raptors era during Vince's tenure was a tumultuous time with tons of turnover -- Vince played with about 70 different players in those 6+ years. There's probably 2-3 *entirely* different starting lineups in there. He had 3 different coaches, 2.5 general managers. And do we really need to revisit the horrible drafts? Radojevic. Michael Bradley. Kareem Rush (Chris Jeffries). And other picks traded away unnecessarily. We're talking about a franchise that simply wasn't ready for the early success that Vince brought.

                      Today, the current Toronto Raptors as a franchise is riding high. We have the city's *ahem* country's full support, we have a diehard fanbase, we have a GM who is in full control; who is widely respected (if not feared) by his peers, we have an entire roster of guys who want to be here and we probably even have some players in the league who *wish* they were here. We have coaching stability, we have a clear plan for the future.. none of these things were true during Vince's heyday. Vince Carter in today's stable franchise would have played his entire career for the Raptors, that is just the truth of it.

                      He wasn't the most mature but then again he never had that round table sitdown with Casey and Ujiri, but rather a coach that wanted to body slam him. He never enjoyed the camaraderie of a DeRozan; but rather a jealous cousin in McGrady. He never had a mentor like that of a Chauncey Billups, but rather a teammate like Charles Oakley who, let's face it, not the most popular or likeable dude out there.

                      This is why when I look back, I still put Vince on a pedestal because of what he did for us against the odds set before him.
                      your pal,
                      ebrian

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                      • #41
                        Great discussion, just one thought: DeMar hasn't only benefited from stability here, he's contributed to it. With both Vince and Bosh, part of the reason for high roster turnover was there was a continual sense of "gotta keep our star happy or he'll walk, gotta win ASAP." The franchise has not had that vibe under DeMar, partly due to management but DeMar was here for some shit years early, he was here under previous management, and he has always said he's committed to being here and he's not going anywhere. I think that gives management/ownership some confidence that they don't have to rush things.

                        Obviously a lot of other things going on too and Ujiri is ultimately the architect of this stability and success, but DeMar has definitely helped. Vince sure didn't, he contributed to the turmoil. That's gotta count for something in considering "Best Raptor of All Time."
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • #42
                          With DeMar basically the all-time posterboy for NBA player development, and already having put in his time in terms of tenure and wins, I'm ready to make the mental transition right now.

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                          • #43
                            S.R. wrote: View Post

                            Obviously a lot of other things going on too and Ujiri is ultimately the architect of this stability and success, but DeMar has definitely helped. Vince sure didn't, he contributed to the turmoil. That's gotta count for something in considering "Best Raptor of All Time."
                            I mean BC gave DeMar his first extension, for which he took A LOT of shit. Credit where credit is due, though Masai definitely cemented things.

                            But I agree with the overall point. DeMar has shown a commitment to this team for a long long time. Last year there was chatter on this board that he was just doing it to get paid, which I think is such BS. It's been clear for a long time that DeMar is a character guy and that loyalty means a lot to him.

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                            • #44
                              Demar caught up into the Greatest Raptor of all time as quietly as cyanide or carbon monoxide gas. So sneaky

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                              • #45
                                The odds of DeMar keeping this up aren't great but this would be a legit all-time great Raptors season.

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