When do we pass the mantle of Best all time Raptor ?

[Sinbad]

WS in particular are actually suppressed for players on bad teams, as team on-court ratings tend to be pretty bad and they play into the WS calculation. VORP in theory isolates the bad team effect but no stat is perfect - nonetheless I haven't seen anything showing that there is an inherent skew to players on bad teams.

I'm not so sure I trust VORP isolating the bad team from the brilliance of an individual player. For instance, Anthony Davis has a VORP of 0.4, which is baffling considering how much he has to do to keep his team competitive on a nightly basis. He measures out horribly in win shares too, barely cobbling together 0.5 OWS and 0.5 DWS. No metric is foolproof, but both metrics really punish him for playing on a bad team.

[DanH]

Any chance VORP and win shares are inflated for good players on bad teams? Something like: Bosh contributed more to winning than Derozan because Derozan has teammates who also contribute to the win?

WS in particular are actually suppressed for players on bad teams, as team on-court ratings tend to be pretty bad and they play into the WS calculation. VORP in theory isolates the bad team effect but no stat is perfect - nonetheless I haven't seen anything showing that there is an inherent skew to players on bad teams.

[enlightenment]

The two years you are comparing:

Bosh: 25 PER, .182 WS/48, 9.6 WS, 2.7 VORP
DeRozan: 21.5 PER, .169 WS/48, 9.9 WS, 2.3 VORP

Individually, Bosh wins out. DeRozan definitely has the edge for team success, but Bosh definitely never had a Lowry. Heck, he never had a JV.

Multi-year comparisons are valid, but DeRozan has really only had two strong years so far (his 2014-15 was a disaster in many ways), though he is obviously looking to build on that with this season. But for now, Bosh in his 7 seasons with the Raps averaged a PER of 21.3, racked up 62 win shares, and a VORP of 18.6. DeRozan in his 7 seasons prior to this one has averaged a PER of 16.3, racked up 35 win shares, and a VORP of 3.6.

DeRozan will need several more very strong seasons to approach what Bosh provided in his time here.

Any chance VORP and win shares are inflated for good players on bad teams? Something like: Bosh contributed more to winning than Derozan because Derozan has teammates who also contribute to the win?

[Just Is]

Part of what sets Vince & Bosh apart, is what they did as Raptors, and for the Raptors.

This comes from a fan who hopes the Raptors have no future affiliation with either player, and who pushed for Bosh to be traded the summer before his final season in a Raptors uniform.

Vince put the organization on the NBA map, globally. He changed the fate of the franchise, and created a nation of basketball fans. Yes, the way he left set the team back and reinforced the notion that stars shy away from the Canadian market, but that doesn't minimize the impact he had. The first taste of playoffs and that epic duel with Iverson... legendary and beyond expectations.

Bosh was an all-around player, who played on absolutely crappy teams. The team had zero expectations, yet he carried them. Had he had a team around him that was as talented and deep as what the Raptors have fielded the past few seasons, I think they could have gone much deeper into the playoffs. He picked the team up from the ashes of Vince's departure, and really helped solidify the franchise.

DeRozan is moving up the historic record books in a number of categories, but a lot of that comes down to a few things:
1. the dreadful history of Raptors basketball
2. a long tenure on a young team will add up eventually, even if you aren't a superstar
3. high usage helps (especially when paired with #2)

Like I said earlier, 'best Raptor' is one thing, but 'best Raptor player' is an entirely different story. Short of a championship appearance (at least), as the culmination of a playoff run he doesn't disappear for, I don't think DeRozan will ever enter into the latter conversation.

This honestly really should end this thread. Pretty much everything I wanted to say right there.

For my personal perspective: I honestly don't think think Demar can touch either Lowry of Vince but I could see him potentially passing Bosh. Demar has a LOT more help than Bosh did and that absolutely should be taken into account (not to mention those 3 things that you specifically mentioned as they really help Demar's resume most) and even then, you're also ignoring the other side of the ball for this argument (defense) which I absolutely believe matters. Personal answer: Lowry passed Vince for me as of Game 7 of the second round of the ECSF and cemented it again in Game 6 of the ECF (he REALLY had me believing we'd push it to Game 7). So it'd be Lowry then Vince then Bosh then Demar.

[KeonClark]

Part of what sets Vince & Bosh apart, is what they did as Raptors, and for the Raptors.

This comes from a fan who hopes the Raptors have no future affiliation with either player, and who pushed for Bosh to be traded the summer before his final season in a Raptors uniform.

Vince put the organization on the NBA map, globally. He changed the fate of the franchise, and created a nation of basketball fans. Yes, the way he left set the team back and reinforced the notion that stars shy away from the Canadian market, but that doesn't minimize the impact he had. The first taste of playoffs and that epic duel with Iverson... legendary and beyond expectations.

Bosh was an all-around player, who played on absolutely crappy teams. The team had zero expectations, yet he carried them. Had he had a team around him that was as talented and deep as what the Raptors have fielded the past few seasons, I think they could have gone much deeper into the playoffs. He picked the team up from the ashes of Vince's departure, and really helped solidify the franchise.

DeRozan is moving up the historic record books in a number of categories, but a lot of that comes down to a few things:
1. the dreadful history of Raptors basketball
2. a long tenure on a young team will add up eventually, even if you aren't a superstar
3. high usage helps (especially when paired with #2)

Like I said earlier, 'best Raptor' is one thing, but 'best Raptor player' is an entirely different story. Short of a championship appearance (at least), as the culmination of a playoff run he doesn't disappear for, I don't think DeRozan will ever enter into the latter conversation.

I think this post should pretty much end the discussion. Nailed it.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Part of what sets Vince & Bosh apart, is what they did as Raptors, and for the Raptors.

This comes from a fan who hopes the Raptors have no future affiliation with either player, and who pushed for Bosh to be traded the summer before his final season in a Raptors uniform.

Vince put the organization on the NBA map, globally. He changed the fate of the franchise, and created a nation of basketball fans. Yes, the way he left set the team back and reinforced the notion that stars shy away from the Canadian market, but that doesn't minimize the impact he had. The first taste of playoffs and that epic duel with Iverson... legendary and beyond expectations.

Bosh was an all-around player, who played on absolutely crappy teams. The team had zero expectations, yet he carried them. Had he had a team around him that was as talented and deep as what the Raptors have fielded the past few seasons, I think they could have gone much deeper into the playoffs. He picked the team up from the ashes of Vince's departure, and really helped solidify the franchise.

DeRozan is moving up the historic record books in a number of categories, but a lot of that comes down to a few things:
1. the dreadful history of Raptors basketball
2. a long tenure on a young team will add up eventually, even if you aren't a superstar
3. high usage helps (especially when paired with #2)

Like I said earlier, 'best Raptor' is one thing, but 'best Raptor player' is an entirely different story. Short of a championship appearance (at least), as the culmination of a playoff run he doesn't disappear for, I don't think DeRozan will ever enter into the latter conversation.

[Scraptor]

Peak still goes Vince then Lowry/Bosh then DeMar.

But by the end of the season DeMar will have taken the overall mantle imo. Barring injury, he will likely be number one for the franchise in the following categories:

Games played
Minutes played
Points
Field goals
Free throws

He should move into the top 5 for rebounds and assists. Number 3 for steals (assuming Lowry passes him and takes number 2).

Playoff performance will go a long way in cementing his status.

Kyle can also move ahead of Vince/Bosh in a year or two imo.

[DanH]

Not to mention bosh played defense. And the most important thing as you said, derozan played with a better player on the floor with him. Bosh was the player.

Yeah, the defence is partially captured in that cumulative VORP score. DeRozan has been somewhat better of late but his early career abysmal defence really sets him back in that department.

[KeonClark]

The two years you are comparing:

Bosh: 25 PER, .182 WS/48, 9.6 WS, 2.7 VORP
DeRozan: 21.5 PER, .169 WS/48, 9.9 WS, 2.3 VORP

Individually, Bosh wins out. DeRozan definitely has the edge for team success, but Bosh definitely never had a Lowry. Heck, he never had a JV.

Multi-year comparisons are valid, but DeRozan has really only had two strong years so far (his 2014-15 was a disaster in many ways), though he is obviously looking to build on that with this season. But for now, Bosh in his 7 seasons with the Raps averaged a PER of 21.3, racked up 62 win shares, and a VORP of 18.6. DeRozan in his 7 seasons prior to this one has averaged a PER of 16.3, racked up 35 win shares, and a VORP of 3.6.

DeRozan will need several more very strong seasons to approach what Bosh provided in his time here.

Not to mention bosh played defense. And the most important thing as you said, derozan played with a better player on the floor with him. Bosh was the player.

[Nilanka]

I always look at Bosh as the Shareef Abdur Rahim of the Raptors. Great player, great scorer on a mediocre/treadmill team.

Abdur-Rahim, if I remember correctly, absolutely folded during crunch time. To the point of not wanting the ball in his hands with the game on the line. Guy was too scared of failing.

Don't think we ever described Bosh that way.

[DanH]

Yeah lets argue, I claim Derozan's peak in 2015-16 is higher than Boshs peak in 2009-10.

DD 15-16: 23.5/4.5/4 on 44.6/33.8/85.0 with 1.0 stl and 2.2 tov

Bosh 09-10: 24/10.8/2.4 on 51.8/36.4**/79.7 with 1.0 blk and 2.4 tov

**(albeit with only 0.3 3PA)

Also to note, Demar played in 78 games, which would be more games than Bosh has ever played in a season except for his second year.

Though Bosh generated extra possessions with his rebounds, Demar got more of his teammates engaged with his assists. Demar was better at taking care of the ball, and was more accurate at the line.

Overall Boshs best season involved the team missing the playoffs, whereas Demars best season came during the raptors best season historically.

Demar looks like he can sustain or even improve on his production from his best season, whereas after 2009-10 Bosh went to the heat and essentially ended his prime statistical years.

Demar's prime > Bosh's prime

The two years you are comparing:

Bosh: 25 PER, .182 WS/48, 9.6 WS, 2.7 VORP
DeRozan: 21.5 PER, .169 WS/48, 9.9 WS, 2.3 VORP

Individually, Bosh wins out. DeRozan definitely has the edge for team success, but Bosh definitely never had a Lowry. Heck, he never had a JV.

Multi-year comparisons are valid, but DeRozan has really only had two strong years so far (his 2014-15 was a disaster in many ways), though he is obviously looking to build on that with this season. But for now, Bosh in his 7 seasons with the Raps averaged a PER of 21.3, racked up 62 win shares, and a VORP of 18.6. DeRozan in his 7 seasons prior to this one has averaged a PER of 16.3, racked up 35 win shares, and a VORP of 3.6.

DeRozan will need several more very strong seasons to approach what Bosh provided in his time here.

[The Great One]

I always look at Bosh as the Shareef Abdur Rahim of the Raptors. Great player, great scorer on a mediocre/treadmill team.

[enlightenment]

In terms of best player, DeRozan will never equal prime Vinsanity, nor - arguably - Bosh.

Yeah lets argue, I claim Derozan's peak in 2015-16 is higher than Boshs peak in 2009-10.

DD 15-16: 23.5/4.5/4 on 44.6/33.8/85.0 with 1.0 stl and 2.2 tov

Bosh 09-10: 24/10.8/2.4 on 51.8/36.4**/79.7 with 1.0 blk and 2.4 tov

**(albeit with only 0.3 3PA)

Also to note, Demar played in 78 games, which would be more games than Bosh has ever played in a season except for his second year.

Though Bosh generated extra possessions with his rebounds, Demar got more of his teammates engaged with his assists. Demar was better at taking care of the ball, and was more accurate at the line.

Overall Boshs best season involved the team missing the playoffs, whereas Demars best season came during the raptors best season historically.

Demar looks like he can sustain or even improve on his production from his best season, whereas after 2009-10 Bosh went to the heat and essentially ended his prime statistical years.

Demar's prime > Bosh's prime

[rightsideup]

I know its off topic but deboo and kyle are the best duo and contenders for best raptors. This is all just speculation until careers are done. Judging on what happened last year and potentially could happen this year I could see demar coming out as the best with a combination of talent, individual accomplishments, and team success. He consistently gets better and also has the longevity with the franchise.

[planetmars]

If it's premature to consider DD one of the best, then it should be equally premature to lump Lowry in there with Bosh and Vince. Lowry has been a Raptor for 4 seasons.

Vince had 6.. so Lowry is not far off.. ultimately it comes down to playoff success. And Lowry has had more. He got the team to the ECF. Best Vince ever did was help win a 5 game series, and went 7 games in round 2.

Lowry isn't there yet, but its close for me. If he finishes this season in 75+ games and helps get the team to round 2 again, he's ahead of Vince in my opinion.