How do we fix our defense?

[golden]

Maybe with Greer gone, Casey has handed out too many "scorer" role cards, and there's nobody else to remind the scorers about their defensive responsibilities (nor have they ever really been held accountable).

The sad part is the amount of truth in my otherwise sarcastic remark.

Kyle and Demar have to lead by example. On both ends of the floor. That's the bottom line. End of story. Everybody else will fall in line when they see KL & DD put out consistent effort on defense.

[Scraptor]

I'm out on this conversation. I stated that I thought we needed more defensive effort from DeMar, and was told that that was asking too much.

I didn't say he was the sole defensive issue(he's not), I just said he could be better, he could work harder. I'm hardly the first or only person to say this.

Apparently that was me 'picking on DeMar as usual'.

If the general opinion is that consistent defensive effort is too much to ask of any player, maybe we just don't deserve a championship team.

Give me a break. Your very first post was disingenuous by the order in which you listed the on/off spreads. Saying "Is there anyone with a bigger spread", showing Joseph, and then saying "we're getting warmer" and leaving for DeMar for last was obviously meant to imply DeMar was the worst offender--which he's not. You also could have posted the spreads, Joseph at -7.3 and DeMar at -5.7, but you left that out because it was too obvious.

Stuff like that (plus placing the entire focus on DeMar as the problem) is why people suggest you're picking on DeMar.

And sure, he probably deserves to be picked on for his defense. But it's reductive to turn everything into a referendum on DeMar DeRozan, so it shouldn't be a surprise that people call you on it.

[Barolt]

Give me a break. Your very first post was disingenuous by the order in which you listed the on/off spreads. Saying "Is there anyone with a bigger spread", showing Joseph, and then saying "we're getting warmer" and leaving for DeMar for last was obviously meant to imply DeMar was the worst offender--which he's not. You also could have posted the spreads, Joseph at -7.3 and DeMar at -5.7, but you left that out because it was too obvious.

Stuff like that (plus placing the entire focus on DeMar as the problem) is why people suggest you're picking on DeMar.

And sure, he probably deserves to be picked on for his defense. But it's reductive to turn everything into a referendum on DeMar DeRozan, so it shouldn't be a surprise that people call you on it.

When it comes to our defense, he has to be talked about. Trying to discuss the team's defensive issues without mentioning DeMar would be completely disingenous.

Sure, I think DeMar's defensive issues are frustrating and I bring them up. He's also been fantastic offensively. Check the quick reactions I've done this year, or the columns I've written, or any of my podcasts I've done, and I have barely said any negative things about him, versus a lot of positive things.

That doesn't change the fact that I think his defensive issues are real.

[Lupe]

Give me a break. Your very first post was disingenuous by the order in which you listed the on/off spreads. Saying "Is there anyone with a bigger spread", showing Joseph, and then saying "we're getting warmer" and leaving for DeMar for last was obviously meant to imply DeMar was the worst offender--which he's not. You also could have posted the spreads, Joseph at -7.3 and DeMar at -5.7, but you left that out because it was too obvious.

Stuff like that (plus placing the entire focus on DeMar as the problem) is why people suggest you're picking on DeMar.

And sure, he probably deserves to be picked on for his defense. But it's reductive to turn everything into a referendum on DeMar DeRozan, so it shouldn't be a surprise that people call you on it.

This. Like if DeMar trying harder gets us back to being a top 10 defense from near the bottom, then he needs a DPOY in his trophy cabinet. Not sure any guard is capable of having that level of impact on a defense.

[lewro]

It's very similar to Enes Kanter on OKC. Like I don't think JV is as bad as him on defense but the reality is neither of them really change the game for you on that end. Kanter is miles better than Adams offensively (in fact you could argue he's better than JV also) but Adams starts because the defensive impact on the game is more important at that position. Especially since the offense isn't going to suddenly switch from Westbrook (and KD last year) centric to Kanter-centric.

I honestly wonder if JV could play a similar role to Kanter and be a super-sub elite 6th man scorer at center with someone like Noel starting. Zach Lowe was talking about teams doing that with some of the elite offensive bigs who aren't great defensively and letting them feast on second units in one of his recent podcasts.

Yes, I made pretty much the same comp in recent weeks and got laughed at for it.
I'll take as many weapons as I can vs lebron, including jv and noel. We can trade one after we see the fit and someone useful comes on the market.

[Scraptor]

Also, I can't believe I missed this during training camp, but it's worth noting that Casey already DID try asking DeMar to try harder on D:

"I told him this summer: He told on himself with the U.S. team, I said, 'How come you can go play for Mike Krzyzewski and play defense but you come here and we have to hide you defensively?'" Casey said.

I can't remember ever seeing that kind of candour from Casey. It's great. But it also shows that the coaching staff (and the front office) are aware that DeMar's defense is an issue.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tors/92835626/

So if what we're seeing comes after asking DeMar to try harder, either one of two things has happened:
1. He has tried harder but can't do any better, because he's simply not capable.
2. He can't/won't try harder, for whatever reason (fatigue, indifference, who knows).

Either way it suggests that the best remaining option is to re-acquire an elite rim protector. (This is of course assuming we don't ship off DeMar himself, which is of a probability so low it's pointless discussing.)

[lewro]

I don't understand why people aren't in trade chatter discussing how to make these adjustments? We can complain ad nauseum here but how are we gonna fix it? Let's try to move forward by discussing possible trades imo? Whatever you think of our team, it is clear we lack talent to compete at the highest level.

[S.R.]

Don't forget it's not just about DRTG - NRTG is key, too. There are two ends to a basketball court. Biyombo helps defensively and also consistently cramped the offense and made everything more difficult for the team on that end. There's a reason he's a career 20 mpg bench guy.

Toronto is still top 10 Nrtg, clean up the defense a bit and they'll be near the top of the league again overall. Every opponent and their uncle hanging 100+ points on the team is embarrassing, but the suggestions to replace 2-3 starters right now (with Anthony Davis calibre players) are hilarious. This isn't NBA 2Kwhatever.

Greer is gone, Biyombo is gone, James Johnson is gone, the schedule has been tough, it's a small sample size, all of that is going on, but Job A is for the guys in the locker room right now to take care of business and shape up and the role of management right now is to give them the opportunity to do so. Golden State is middle of the pack Drtg right now after being top 5 the last 3 seasons. Have you heard any panic about missing Andrew Bogut? Way premature.

Long-term I'm more worried about Lowry than JV, tbh. If, as Lowry ages and some of his physical ability drops off, he starts to lose a step defensively, it's going to be very hard to continue to play him for heavy minutes next to DeMar. And DeMar's younger and the guy with a new contract. Lowry's going to opt out next summer. How high do the Raptors bid and for how long? Do you want to pay him $20m per for 4 years? How will the perimeter D look with a 34 year old Lowry next to DeMar?

[S.R.]

I don't understand why people aren't in trade chatter discussing how to make these adjustments? We can complain ad nauseum here but how are we gonna fix it? Let's try to move forward by discussing possible trades imo? Whatever you think of our team, it is clear we lack talent to compete at the highest level.

Maybe because some people also enjoy discussing what's actually happening on the court right now?

Where's that guy who comes in and drops posts with proposed new Raptors lineups that have 50%+ new players and a couple new All-Stars?

[Barolt]

In terms of non-DeMar issues, I really think it's hurt the team how inflexible Casey is with his role-cards.

Why wouldn't it be better for us to run a rotating door at SF, starting Carroll against the Paul Georges, LeBron James', and KDs of the world, Norm when it's the best fit, and Ross when it's the best fit?

Why not start Pat sometimes where the matchup fits?

Rigid rotations aren't helpful.

[lewro]

Don't forget it's not just about DRTG - NRTG is key, too. There are two ends to a basketball court. Biyombo helps defensively and also consistently cramped the offense and made everything more difficult for the team on that end. There's a reason he's a career 20 mpg bench guy.

Toronto is still top 10 Nrtg, clean up the defense a bit and they'll be near the top of the league again overall. Every opponent and their uncle hanging 100+ points on the team is embarrassing, but the suggestions to replace 2-3 starters right now (with Anthony Davis calibre players) are hilarious. This isn't NBA 2Kwhatever.

Greer is gone, Biyombo is gone, James Johnson is gone, the schedule has been tough, it's a small sample size, all of that is going on, but Job A is for the guys in the locker room right now to take care of business and shape up and the role of management right now is to give them the opportunity to do so. Golden State is middle of the pack Drtg right now after being top 5 the last 3 seasons. Have you heard any panic about missing Andrew Bogut? Way premature.

Long-term I'm more worried about Lowry than JV, tbh. If, as Lowry ages and some of his physical ability drops off, he starts to lose a step defensively, it's going to be very hard to continue to play him for heavy minutes next to DeMar. And DeMar's younger and the guy with a new contract. Lowry's going to opt out next summer. How high do the Raptors bid and for how long? Do you want to pay him $20m per for 4 years? How will the perimeter D look with a 34 year old Lowry next to DeMar?

Yes, I've heard rumours about gsw wanting noel too

[lewro]

Maybe because some people also enjoy discussing what's actually happening on the court right now?

Where's that guy who comes in and drops posts with proposed new Raptors lineups that have 50%+ new players and a couple new All-Stars?

50%!? I'm talking about one or two guys for one bench player and maybe a starter.
Why can we talk about the actual problems and hypothesize how to resolve them, including trade? Do you think we are beating the cavs as constructed?

[lewro]

In terms of non-DeMar issues, I really think it's hurt the team how inflexible Casey is with his role-cards.

Why wouldn't it be better for us to run a rotating door at SF, starting Carroll against the Paul Georges, LeBron James', and KDs of the world, Norm when it's the best fit, and Ross when it's the best fit?

Why not start Pat sometimes where the matchup fits?

Rigid rotations aren't helpful.

I agree. We are still not talented enough imo tho.

[Lupe]

Yes, I've heard rumours about gsw wanting noel too

This, I've seen tons of GS fans who are very worried about their defense, and they should be.

LeBron has only lost to a non top five defense once in his playoff career and that was Dallas in 2011 and they were still elite at 8th. You're not beating LeBron with an average defense.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

50%!? I'm talking about one or two guys for one bench player and maybe a starter.
Why can we talk about the actual problems and hypothesize how to resolve them, including trade? Do you think we are beating the cavs as constructed?

I think the point is that it's one thing to discuss the team as is, whereas discussing crazy trade ideas is best left for the Trade Chatter thread, or the Trade Proposal Forum.

It would be just as easy to suggest trading Lowry, since he's expiring and could net a good haul, or DeRozan since his defense is so bad, but they're all completely theoretical. Feel free to discuss any/all of those ideas, but in the appropriate place. Yes, a trade is an option, but this isn't the thread to go down a specific trade idea rabbit hole.