How do we fix our defense?

[DanH]

Again, who other than you suggested that RPM is definitive? And if it's not, then the rest of your post is largely irrelevant to the point that Biz is surely missed and surely represents a replaceable skillset that, if acquired, might benefit the defense. Is that worthy of discussion? And if you really think Bebe = Biz (ie, is a "replacement level player") in anything other than sheer numbers, then I don't know where to go next.

Did I bring up RPM at all in this thread until now? I used it because it was explicitly mentioned as evidence he was what is missing in the post I quoted (well, no, not that post, but the post that that poster started his point with slightly further up page).

Please define the skill set in terms of any recordable stat and I will dig up a similar list for you, and we'll see if it looks similarly ridiculous or not. If the argument is going to descend into "my opinion is impossible to prove no matter what" there's not much middle ground there.

[Lupe]

If you are arguing that RPM is definitive, and that his defensive impact can be replicated by getting someone like him, let's look at the candidates. Centres who had a DRPM of 3 or better:

Andrew Bogut
Cole Aldrich
Ian Mahinmi
DeAndre Jordan
Rudy Gobert
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond
Pau Gasol
NeNe Hilario
Bismack Biyombo

Which of those players do you honestly think would make the team better than they are now? Which do you think are attainable? Any overlap in those lists?

Here's a fun one, using DBPM (basketball-reference's version of RPM):

2015-16 Bismack Biyombo +2.3
2015-16 Lucas Nogueira +2.9
2016-17 Lucas Nogueira +5.9

Problem solved, right?

Seriously, how is Nogueira providing any less than Biz has? He's a no good rebounder, but so is Noel. Outside of that, Nogueira has blocked more shots, has better impact numbers so far, and has an almost identical on-court defensive rating to what Biz had last year. More minutes for JV means a hit to the defence, but a marginal one. Mostly it is that the defence has fallen off across the board, not just in lineups where Biz would have been playing.

I didn't argue that RPM was definitive. I don't even like the stat. I included it in a list of several other factors.

[jimmie]

Did I bring up RPM at all in this thread until now? I used it because it was explicitly mentioned as evidence he was what is missing in the post I quoted (well, no, not that post, but the post that that poster started his point with slightly further up page).

Please define the skill set in terms of any recordable stat and I will dig up a similar list for you, and we'll see if it looks similarly ridiculous or not. If the argument is going to descend into "my opinion is impossible to prove no matter what" there's not much middle ground there.

I'm not a stats guy, I don't rely on them to form an opinion, I trust my eyes, so I'm not sure if there are recordable stats to prove Bebe and Biz are not the same player. My record's pretty good in terms of my eye test matching up with stats, I think, but there are times when they don't match, and in those cases, I trust what I see and what I've learned about basketball in the last 40 or so years. If you need numbers to prove that Bebe < Biz, then agreed, there's not much middle ground.

[The Great One]

How do we fix our D? it's pretty simple: 1. We need a RIM PROTECTOR and 2. We need our perimeter guys to step up and play like they care. DeRozan is an atrocious defender. Carroll is a SHELL of himself. When you see guys like OMRI CASSPI blowing by Carroll who's supposed to be a "defensive" guy, that's not a good sign.

Ross has regressed a lot defensively. He used to be a pretty good defensive player, I don't know what happened to him.

Kyle Lowry gambles a lot on defence.

Right now, Norman Powell and Cory Joseph are the only 2 reliable perimeter defenders they have. Powell BY FAR is the best of the bunch.

[McRealistic]

^^^ This team is in a severe need for a TRADE but too bad, MU will not do it.

[Lupe]

How do we fix our D? it's pretty simple: 1. We need a RIM PROTECTOR and 2. We need our perimeter guys to step up and play like they care. DeRozan is an atrocious defender. Carroll is a SHELL of himself. When you see guys like OMRI CASSPI blowing by Carroll who's supposed to be a "defensive" guy, that's not a good sign.

Ross has regressed a lot defensively. He used to be a pretty good defensive player, I don't know what happened to him.

Kyle Lowry gambles a lot on defence.

Right now, Norman Powell and Cory Joseph are the only 2 reliable perimeter defenders they have. Powell BY FAR is the best of the bunch.

I think you need to swap Ross and CoJo in your assessment there.

Ross is about the only player who has played consistently well on both ends this year.

[Barolt]

How do we fix our D? it's pretty simple: 1. We need a RIM PROTECTOR and 2. We need our perimeter guys to step up and play like they care. DeRozan is an atrocious defender. Carroll is a SHELL of himself. When you see guys like OMRI CASSPI blowing by Carroll who's supposed to be a "defensive" guy, that's not a good sign.

Ross has regressed a lot defensively. He used to be a pretty good defensive player, I don't know what happened to him.

Kyle Lowry gambles a lot on defence.

Right now, Norman Powell and Cory Joseph are the only 2 reliable perimeter defenders they have. Powell BY FAR is the best of the bunch.

In terms of on/off court DRtg impact, Lowry, Bebe and Ross are head and shoulders above everyone else.

[Rudy Bargnani]

This is a fun discussion and I'm enjoying following along. I'd just like to add:

I think both sides of this discussion can be correct. Bismack can absolutely have beeen a great back up center for us that filled in admirably when jv got hurt. At the same time a new back up center doesn't have to be the solution to this years defensive woes.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

[tDotted]

Bebe's kind of a weak post defender but he can definitely protect the rim well. 3.4 blocks per 36. If he was someone else on another team he'd be on our wishlist of guys to go after via trade lol

[lewro]

If you are arguing that RPM is definitive, and that his defensive impact can be replicated by getting someone like him, let's look at the candidates. Centres who had a DRPM of 3 or better:

Andrew Bogut
Cole Aldrich
Ian Mahinmi
DeAndre Jordan
Rudy Gobert
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond
Pau Gasol
NeNe Hilario
Bismack Biyombo

Which of those players do you honestly think would make the team better than they are now? Which do you think are attainable? Any overlap in those lists?

Here's a fun one, using DBPM (basketball-reference's version of RPM):

2015-16 Bismack Biyombo +2.3
2015-16 Lucas Nogueira +2.9
2016-17 Lucas Nogueira +5.9

Problem solved, right?

Seriously, how is Nogueira providing any less than Biz has? He's a no good rebounder, but so is Noel. Outside of that, Nogueira has blocked more shots, has better impact numbers so far, and has an almost identical on-court defensive rating to what Biz had last year. More minutes for JV means a hit to the defence, but a marginal one. Mostly it is that the defence has fallen off across the board, not just in lineups where Biz would have been playing.

Nerlens career reb avg is 8.1. when we had this conversation before you described Sully as an elite rebounder. His avg is 8.3. per 36 the difference is 1.4. neither is elite. Sully is very good, nerlens is decent. Bebe is 2.2 avg. and 5.7/36.

Nerlens defensive rating in his rookie season (the last time he got to play centre) was 100.4 (biz was 100.6 last yr). His dprm was 3.35. his dbpm was 4.5. he was 20 yrs old. 4 yrs younger than bebe is now, 3 younger than biz was last yr. He's the only player the last two yrs to compile +100 blocks and steals in each of the two seasons besides millsap and ibaka (two very familiar names here).

Our offense is fine. Nerlens is an excellent rim runner. Our guards know how to throw a lob and they like doing it. They treat jv like a giant pylon. If the cost is cory to get noel than give his mins to norm. We're better off. We will still have jv and sully for rebounds and post defense. Cory can dribble out the shot clock in Philly. He might improve his ceiling a bit in shooting but he can't pass much. What's the point? Norms already better in every way, with a higher ceiling and he's sitting on the bench.
We have no recourse to upgrade our team in FA and we are clearly outmatched vs the contenders (last yr with biz and this yr more so without). I don't really need stats to tell me that but if it helps then there it is 4.5 dbpm (whatever that means). It was 3.4 with him at pf last yr playing out of position. That's still better than biz at 2.3. and biz was awesome!
The guy was a consensus #1 overall pick until he got hurt and it wasnt even close. 3rd in rookie voting based purely on defense (exactly what we need). #1 high school recruit by most sources.
You can resign him and trade him for more than cory and probably get a position of actual need. We have 4 pgs. Our front court is jv (can't play defense), pat (career backup), Sully (fat/broken foot), and 3 rookies. If jv gets hurt we're not even making the playoffs. All that for cory Joseph! Overrated.

[KHD]

Nerlens career reb avg is 8.1. when we had this conversation before you described Sully as an elite rebounder. His avg is 8.3. per 36 the difference is 1.4. neither is elite. Sully is very good, nerlens is decent. Bebe is 2.2 avg. and 5.7/36.

Nerlens defensive rating in his rookie season (the last time he got to play centre) was 100.4 (biz was 100.6 last yr). His dprm was 3.35. his dbpm was 4.5. he was 20 yrs old. 4 yrs younger than bebe is now, 3 younger than biz was last yr. He's the only player the last two yrs to compile +100 blocks and steals in each of the two seasons besides millsap and ibaka (two very familiar names here).

Our offense is fine. Nerlens is an excellent rim runner. Our guards know how to throw a lob and they like doing it. They treat jv like a giant pylon. If the cost is cory to get noel than give his mins to norm. We're better off. We will still have jv and sully for rebounds and post defense. Cory can dribble out the shot clock in Philly. He might improve his ceiling a bit in shooting but he can't pass much. What's the point? Norms already better in every way, with a higher ceiling and he's sitting on the bench.
We have no recourse to upgrade our team in FA and we are clearly outmatched vs the contenders (last yr with biz and this yr more so without). I don't really need stats to tell me that but if it helps then there it is 4.5 dbpm (whatever that means). It was 3.4 with him at pf last yr playing out of position. That's still better than biz at 2.3. and biz was awesome!
The guy was a consensus #1 overall pick until he got hurt and it wasnt even close. 3rd in rookie voting based purely on defense (exactly what we need). #1 high school recruit by most sources.
You can resign him and trade him for more than cory and probably get a position of actual need. We have 4 pgs. Our front court is jv (can't play defense), pat (career backup), Sully (fat/broken foot), and 3 rookies. If jv gets hurt we're not even making the playoffs. All that for cory Joseph! Overrated.

sorry, at what point did norman powell ever demonstrate the ability to play the point guard spot on either end?

[DanH]

Nerlens career reb avg is 8.1. when we had this conversation before you described Sully as an elite rebounder. His avg is 8.3. per 36 the difference is 1.4. neither is elite. Sully is very good, nerlens is decent. Bebe is 2.2 avg. and 5.7/36.

Noel had a TRB% of 15% last year. Sullinger had a TRB% of 19% last year. Noel is a C, Sully is a PF. Sullinger is a solid rebounder for a C, a great rebounder for a PF. Noel is a decent rebounder for a PF, a below average one for a C.

The rest we've covered before.

[Lupe]

Noel had a TRB% of 15% last year. Sullinger had a TRB% of 19% last year. Noel is a C, Sully is a PF. Sullinger is a solid rebounder for a C, a great rebounder for a PF. Noel is a decent rebounder for a PF, a below average one for a C.

The rest we've covered before.

Sully is not a power forward, he's a center. 68% of his career minutes have come at center and he is not fast enough to defend most of the very mobile power forwards that teams are running nowadays.

Nerlens Noel is also not a power forward btw, although I think we agree on that.

Also with Noel I think it's a bit disingenuous to not bring upside and potential into the conversation. We're looking at numbers from when he was 21 years old playing on a really, really bad basketball team that was actively trying to lose games (in the front office anyway). Whereas for Sully he's been in the league long enough to where we can basically say he is what he is since he doesn't really have any sort of reputation for being a DeRozan-like workhorse.

[DanH]

Sully is not a power forward, he's a center. 68% of his career minutes have come at center and he is not fast enough to defend most of the very mobile power forwards that teams are running nowadays.

Nerlens Noel is also not a power forward btw, although I think we agree on that.

Also with Noel I think it's a bit disingenuous to not bring upside and potential into the conversation. We're looking at numbers from when he was 21 years old playing on a really, really bad basketball team that was actively trying to lose games (in the front office anyway). Whereas for Sully he's been in the league long enough to where we can basically say he is what he is since he doesn't really have any sort of reputation for being a DeRozan-like workhorse.

I'm happy to say it's a roll of the dice, as of course Noel might improve. I'm not happy with applying that logic to Noel's offence and rebounding and at the same time not applying it to JV's defence, the part of a big man's game that is most often noted as the slowest to develop.

[Lupe]

I'm happy to say it's a roll of the dice, as of course Noel might improve. I'm not happy with applying that logic to Noel's offence and rebounding and at the same time not applying it to JV's defence, the part of a big man's game that is most often noted as the slowest to develop.

When did I say JV can't get better defensively?

However there are some things like lateral quickness and flat out speed that just aren't going to increase any time soon.