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  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yes our D was entirely dependent on a one dimensional player who played less than half a game.

    I still dont get it...how much did Charlotte's D suffer with Biz gone? Not one bit. Their defensive coach hated playing Biz because of how bad he could be beyond his shotblocking. And they had/have arguably the worst group of bigs defensively in the league after they lost Biz.

    I don't get how people don't understand that for your D to be good, all 5 guys need to be responsible. If guys think they can relax/gamble because they have a shotblocker behind them, they're not doing their part. And if they are not doing their part it doesn't matter who you have back there you'll get exposed, especially in the playoffs.

    *oh and your coaches need to preach principles that make sense. I dont know if players are being told to do this, but if i see us go above the screen on a non-shooter again i may break down and cry. Last game was the perfect example as we did so against Giannis a ton especially early on. It made no sense at all.

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    Where is the source for this?

    Biz with the Raptors was one of the best post defenders in the league (per NBA stats)and one of the best defensive rebounders (BBRef).

    I would guess it was Charlotte's offensive coach who's head would implode when Biz was on the floor.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
      Where is the source for this?

      Biz with the Raptors was one of the best post defenders in the league (per NBA stats)and one of the best defensive rebounders (BBRef).

      I would guess it was Charlotte's offensive coach who's head would implode when Biz was on the floor.
      His defensive rebounding is good, but he has typical shotblocker mentality which is that he chases the block as his first instinct. I have no direct source but given how Clifford is one of the best defensive coaches in the league and he had a smaller role there, im guessing the problem with him getting those minutes can't be entirely related to his awful offence. Most defensive coaches preach more conservative defensive principles, where going freelance and looking for blocks(something Biz did a lot of with bench units where his man was rarely and offensive presence) isnt looked at well because it means being out of position and generally not giving the team what they need.

      I just looked up Clifford-Biyombo on google and one of the first results is a Charlotte Obsrver article where Clifford talks about being able to live with the offensive issues if Biyombo played the right way consistently on D. Talks about not giving the right effort and being an average to below average defender. So there's that.

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      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        Yes our D was entirely dependent on a one dimensional player who played less than half a game.

        I still dont get it...how much did Charlotte's D suffer with Biz gone? Not one bit. Their defensive coach hated playing Biz because of how bad he could be beyond his shotblocking. And they had/have arguably the worst group of bigs defensively in the league after they lost Biz.

        I don't get how people don't understand that for your D to be good, all 5 guys need to be responsible. If guys think they can relax/gamble because they have a shotblocker behind them, they're not doing their part. And if they are not doing their part it doesn't matter who you have back there you'll get exposed, especially in the playoffs.

        *oh and your coaches need to preach principles that make sense. I dont know if players are being told to do this, but if i see us go above the screen on a non-shooter again i may break down and cry. Last game was the perfect example as we did so against Giannis a ton especially early on. It made no sense at all.

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        I like the bolded part...

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        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          His defensive rebounding is good, but he has typical shotblocker mentality which is that he chases the block as his first instinct. I have no direct source but given how Clifford is one of the best defensive coaches in the league and he had a smaller role there, im guessing the problem with him getting those minutes can't be entirely related to his awful offence. Most defensive coaches preach more conservative defensive principles, where going freelance and looking for blocks(something Biz did a lot of with bench units where his man was rarely and offensive presence) isnt looked at well because it means being out of position and generally not giving the team what they need.

          I just looked up Clifford-Biyombo on google and one of the first results is a Charlotte Obsrver article where Clifford talks about being able to live with the offensive issues if Biyombo played the right way consistently on D. Talks about not giving the right effort and being an average to below average defender. So there's that.

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          Here's the exact quote from Nov 6 2014:“His first two years (in the NBA) his team defense was somewhere between average and below average. Last year his rebounding and team defense became at times very, very good. If he can get those two areas back to that level, then he can be a very good player.”

          Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/spo...#storylink=cpy

          So he was average/below average his first 2 years, then very, very good at times his 3rd year. The Bismack we had was 5th year version, nothing like his first 2 years in the league, at least on the defensive end.

          And just to be clear; I never was in the "re-sign Biz at big $" camp, just as I'm not in the "we need Nerlens Noel" camp. But i also feel it's unfair to denigrate the defensive presence he gave us. That was why he got the contract he did and the reason why an informed and impartial observer like Zach Lowe had him on the list for 6th man of the year consideration.
          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            Yes our D was entirely dependent on a one dimensional player who played less than half a game.

            I still dont get it...how much did Charlotte's D suffer with Biz gone? Not one bit. Their defensive coach hated playing Biz because of how bad he could be beyond his shotblocking. And they had/have arguably the worst group of bigs defensively in the league after they lost Biz.

            I don't get how people don't understand that for your D to be good, all 5 guys need to be responsible. If guys think they can relax/gamble because they have a shotblocker behind them, they're not doing their part. And if they are not doing their part it doesn't matter who you have back there you'll get exposed, especially in the playoffs.

            *oh and your coaches need to preach principles that make sense. I dont know if players are being told to do this, but if i see us go above the screen on a non-shooter again i may break down and cry. Last game was the perfect example as we did so against Giannis a ton especially early on. It made no sense at all.
            Exactly. Fixing the defence goes way beyond swapping player X with player Y. We could have prime Bill Russell back there and we'd still have problems because the other players on the court and the scheme have issues.

            Our PnR coverage hasn't looked good. We struggle to keep anyone out of the lane. We have no secondary bodies on the glass, so once the help comes (JV or Bebe usually) we are out of position to get the rebound.

            How much is scheme and how much is execution and effort, I can't say which is why it's hard to really have much meaningful discussion in this thread. Hopefully some components will normalize once the schedule evens out but these are the type of issues that get exposed in the playoffs.

            Personally, I'd like to see less of the CoJo-Lowry backcourt and see more Powell with CoJo. I think the benefits of Lowry-CoJo have dwindled.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
              Here's the exact quote from Nov 6 2014:“His first two years (in the NBA) his team defense was somewhere between average and below average. Last year his rebounding and team defense became at times very, very good. If he can get those two areas back to that level, then he can be a very good player.”

              Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/spo...#storylink=cpy

              So he was average/below average his first 2 years, then very, very good at times his 3rd year. The Bismack we had was 5th year version, nothing like his first 2 years in the league, at least on the defensive end.

              And just to be clear; I never was in the "re-sign Biz at big $" camp, just as I'm not in the "we need Nerlens Noel" camp. But i also feel it's unfair to denigrate the defensive presence he gave us. That was why he got the contract he did and the reason why an informed and impartial observer like Zach Lowe had him on the list for 6th man of the year consideration.
              That's only part of the quote, also included:

              “In the preseason he just didn’t play very well,” coach Steve Clifford said. “When he has the right energy level and thinking defense and rebounding, he has nights when he plays well. When he doesn’t do those things, the team doesn’t play as well when he’s out there.”

              “He and I have been talking about this for two years now – he’s got to be a more consistent effort, defense and rebounding player,” Clifford said.

              The article talks about how Maxiell was basically getting the role they expected to be Biz's. Maxiell was barely functional at that point.

              And those issues did persist with Biz last year (maybe not as bad as a 3rd year player, but clearly he was still bad enough his 4th year that they didn't even tender him a QF in Charlotte). There were plenty of games where his energy level or defensive focus were lacking, but he would get a pass and still get put back out there for O/D substitutions late in the game. Was our D better with him out there? With the bench it usually was, but our bench was much better defensively than our starters where we had issues at SF most of the year because of injuries, Scola being a pylon, and DeMar and Lowry being excused from having to play D.

              I don't think any part of our defensive issues have to do with what we're getting from the C position. JV actually looks better defensively so far this year. Poeltl and Bebe have done a good enough job most nights, and when they aren't there's no need to extend their minutes.

              The area we're suffering is on the perimeter. DeMar and Lowry need to be held accountable, even if it means slightly reducing their minutes/workload (which we are 100% a deep enough team in the backcourt to do), and more importantly we need to get Cojo from last year back, and the Carroll from Atlanta where he was their best man defender on wings and caused chaos in the passing lanes (the latter seems to be coming back, but I'm still not impressed with anything I've seen from Carroll in terms of man D).

              And our schemes/tactics are still out of whack. Not playing the p'n'r smart most nights. Doing things like not icing the side p'n'r game enough, or consistently going above screens even when the player is not a good shooter. I can't stress enough how infuriating it was watching us do this with Giannis the other night...he shoots 16% from 3...is that coaches not scouting? Is it players not listening? Either way it's beyond stupid. I don't understand why even with some half-decent shooters we don't dare them to shoot more often.

              So for me, I don't feel I'm denigrating the defensive presence he gave us. I feel that presence is quite overrated by fans and no part of our defensive issues have to do with his loss, nor was our better D last year because of him in any significant way. He's a classic deep bench player who makes some eye-popping plays on D that make a lot of people not notice the times he does struggle. He can help your D at times, but he has to be playing literally at his highest possible level for that to matter given how little he can impact (or how he can negatively impact) the game in any other way.

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              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I can't stress enough how infuriating it was watching us do this with Giannis the other night...he shoots 16% from 3...is that coaches not scouting? Is it players not listening? Either way it's beyond stupid. I don't understand why even with some half-decent shooters we don't dare them to shoot more often.
                Weird thing, there were times when guys were playing off him (I distinctly remember Ross giving him a lot of space) but it was only in ISO situations. I really do believe the issue there is what Casey is asking them to do on PnR coverage more than anything else. They obviously know Antentokounpo can't shoot from deep they just failed to apply it consistently. It's like the PnR coverage schemes were over-ruling the player specific defensive schemes.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Helping the helper... aka Defense 101



                  Ironically Raptors are the first (and only) example used to demonstrate what NOT to do.

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                  • One thing I always see with the Raptors is whenever a big has to help nobody helps the big. Then there man gets an easy offensive rebound or the player who's driving in makes a dump off pass to the open player.
                    "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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                    • MACK11 wrote: View Post
                      One thing I always see with the Raptors is whenever a big has to help nobody helps the big. Then there man gets an easy offensive rebound or the player who's driving in makes a dump off pass to the open player.
                      when i pointed this out last year it was dismissed as "defending JV because you're a JV 'stan'", whatever the fuck that is.

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                      • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                        Yeah have to agree.... Pretty much have to believe after backing up a brinks truck full of money for DD and giving out a 5 year term that the GM is very unlikely to change his mind about a major personal and financial commitment he made less than 6 months ago.

                        With Kyle being in a contract/player option year not sure the GM could get FMV for him if something were to actually bubble up to solve a defensive issue. Also think that it being a contract year you would likely get the best out of Kyle this year. Those two thoughts would probably preclude a trade of him from my front row seat in the peanut gallery.

                        Which leaves....

                        The usual suspects ... JV and Ross and CoJo and Ppat... in the never ending good natured discussion on trading for the holy grail of a rim protector... a lock down perimeter defender.... or the most elusive of targets the bona fide stretch 4.

                        Everyone has an opinion... we'll be talking on this one forever..

                        Nicely Said.

                        It is Hilarious that some people here say that when Biz left Charlotte their defence did not suffer as much. Well, to start , Charlotte does not have DD and KL as their 2 starters and also Biz did not have his break out season there.

                        Lets face it, DD and KL are the future of Raptors under MU. So to Balance them, we have to give them more help.

                        That can be in SF, PF or C position. To say lets play Powell instead of DD more is ridiculous.

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                        • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                          Nicely Said.

                          It is Hilarious that some people here say that when Biz left Charlotte their defence did not suffer as much. Well, to start , Charlotte does not have DD and KL as their 2 starters and also Biz did not have his break out season there.

                          Lets face it, DD and KL are the future of Raptors under MU. So to Balance them, we have to give them more help.

                          That can be in SF, PF or C position. To say lets play Powell instead of DD more is ridiculous.
                          Charlotte had Kemba Walker, Jeremy Lin and Courtney Lee playing most of their backcourt minutes. You telling me that's a great defensive backcourt? They also had Jefferson, Zeller, Hawes and Kaminsky up front, who no one would consider good defensive players. You know what Charlotte does have? A coach who is actually a defensive-minded coach. They had very few guys anyone would consider talented defenders...like Batum, Lee, and maybe Marvin Williams...MKG was injured most of the year.

                          And did a single person say anything about playing Powell instead of DD? I've seen Powell instead of Ross, Cojo, and Carroll...So I'd really like to know where that's coming from.

                          They have to help back. There's no excuse for yours all-stars not playing D. What contender has ever worked like that? Many of the best players have taken pride in playing D. And even bad defenders on great teams have to be responsible enough to not handicap their team's D. So when people have discussions about "we need this gamechanging talent" to be a contender, well it's still not going to work if you can't get everyone to contribute defensively.
                          Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:05 PM.

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                          • Biyombo helped, it was great to have him last year, but his impact/loss is being so overstated. Here is a player that 5 different NBA coaches, including some very defensive-minded ones, have never seen fit to play much more than 20 mpg off the bench. That included some garbage lottery teams, too.

                            He peaked in Toronto for $3m, which was great, Orlando wants to pay him $17m for 20 mpg and they can have him. Bebe/Poeltl/Sully can give you 80%+ of what BB did right now & they do it with a much higher ceiling and they are also doing it for $10m instead of $17m.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • S.R. wrote: View Post
                              Biyombo helped, it was great to have him last year, but his impact/loss is being so overstated. Here is a player that 5 different NBA coaches, including some very defensive-minded ones, have never seen fit to play much more than 20 mpg off the bench. That included some garbage lottery teams, too.

                              He peaked in Toronto for $3m, which was great, Orlando wants to pay him $17m for 20 mpg and they can have him. Bebe/Poeltl/Sully can give you 80%+ of what BB did right now & they do it with a much higher ceiling and they are also doing it for $10m instead of $17m.
                              Actually at just under $5M this season between the two.

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                              • Monthly Raptors roasting by Coach Nick



                                Some legitimate points though.

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