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How do we fix our defense?
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At the end of the day 14 games with the toughest schedule in the league is a lot too early to be trying to draw definite conclusions. I know that's kind of a conversation killer, but it's reality. The raptors if healthy will have a far better win% at the end of the year, and the defense should rebound too. We've played 0 bottom feeders and 4 games vs mega teams
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slaw wrote: View PostSure. It's also possible you are making wild assumptions about a player's effort level and abilities because it helps you reach a pre-determined conclusion you seem very invested in. It's also possible that a lot of factors are having much more of an impact in terms of the defensive woes, including: SOS, changes to coaching staff, BB's absence, early season injuries and struggles, etc.
But you also didn't really respond to what I said, and instead made an assumption about where I was coming from. Many of tose who've told me I'm wrong about DeMar's defense have told me that the reason he can't do more on that end is because he's expected to do so much on offense. Many of those same people have also told me the reason I shouldn't worry so much about JV not being involved on offense is because the offense works just fine as it is.
I feel like these might have linked solutions.
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jimmie wrote: View PostIf all you consider are numbers, agreed, it's hard to see a definitive causation. But there are a myriad of ways that a good defensive team can lose one or two players and become a worse defensive team that go beyond the individual statistical impact. Maybe practices were way more competitive, maybe Biz' talking had become infectious last year and now that's been lost, maybe he simply tipped the balance in the lockerroom to a team that actually prided itself on its defense, and this year they're resting on their laurels? All these are possible, and whether you believe it or not, they can impact the numbers that you collect from the games later on.
The loss of Greer could be a major factor for similar reasons that you can't 'measure' but you can consider.
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What I don't get demar is this: how can one players best attribute be his ability to get to the basket, but one of his worst attributes being his ability to stop players from doing so? I mean footspeed is footspeed, he's not jose Calderon. He's also very oversized but still agile for his position. With james harden it's basically determined the problem is effort sooo
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Barolt wrote: View PostI've been reading posts in this and other threads, and keep coming back to these two things that people argue:
1) The reason Ross and JV aren't more integrated into the offense is because our offense is just fine and we don't need them to do more in order to score effectively.
2) The reason DeMar can't be asked to do more defensively is because he's carrying so much of the offense because it doesn't work without him doing so much.
Is it possible that these two things are linked?
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Barolt wrote: View PostI've been reading posts in this and other threads, and keep coming back to these two things that people argue:
1) The reason Ross and JV aren't more integrated into the offense is because our offense is just fine and we don't need them to do more in order to score effectively.
2) The reason DeMar can't be asked to do more defensively is because he's carrying so much of the offense because it doesn't work without him doing so much.
Is it possible that these two things are linked?
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DanH wrote: View PostOh, for sure. It could be anything. But let's just consider that if we are going to focus on the off-court impacts, we have other candidates - maybe Luis Scola? Or Greer. Or Stackhouse! Or maybe there was a water boy change over the summer. Maybe Sullinger is a bad influence, or the rookies are?
At this point, not a single one of us has any idea what goes on in that locker room - we can only evaluate what happens on the floor. Making definitive statements about the team missing Biz purely based on locker room attitude is a bit of a stretch.
Believe whatever you want.... Believe the drop off could be because we changed the water boy if you want....or the awesome defender named Scola.....lol
Wilful ignorance comes to mind when hearing some of these arguments.Last edited by special1; Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:19 PM.
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DanH wrote: View PostOh, for sure. It could be anything. But let's just consider that if we are going to focus on the off-court impacts, we have other candidates - maybe Luis Scola? Or Greer. Or Stackhouse! Or maybe there was a water boy change over the summer. Maybe Sullinger is a bad influence, or the rookies are?
At this point, not a single one of us has any idea what goes on in that locker room - we can only evaluate what happens on the floor. Making definitive statements about the team missing Biz purely based on locker room attitude is a bit of a stretch.
Anyway, I haven't personally advocated for or against any specific changes to the team. I think they're doing OK considering the strength of schedule and losing their starting PF before the season started. But there are troubling signs, and we have no way of knowing yet whether they are symptoms or just short-term issues.
- The defense is not as good as it was last year. Stats and eye test both tell you this.
- The offense is the same one run last year. It's been pretty successful, by and large, moreso than last year I would say (eye test) but individuals are not performing to the level they were last year or that this offense needs them to for success (Pat, Cojo, primarily + Bebe). More 3s falling? Offense looks fine.
- They are relying on really young guys to play significant minutes. Siakam, Poeltl and even Norm are playing more than you would ideally want on a team hoping to win a championship. They've been doing a decent job, but if they were exchanged by 1 or 2 players doing a better-than-decent job, as Sullinger was supposed to be doing, that would help. Pros and cons to this one.
- JV is not playing the increased role we all thought he was going to get this year. This is a big one. He's playing great on O when given the opportunity. Eye test says he can't guard most mobile 5s and he definitely is a poor help defender in a poor perimeter-D team. No need to trade him as long as he's happy in the limited role and I guess we can hope they modify their O to make him a focal point so his D doesn't sit him on the bench so often.
These are all issues that may or may not have to be solved. But your point remains -- none of us has a clue what happens behind the scenes or what Masai may or may not think abut what's happening now vs. where this team is headed, not to mention what all the stats you're looking at actually mean. It would just be nice to see the tenor of the discussion take that into account a bit more.
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jimmie wrote: View PostIf all you consider are numbers, agreed, it's hard to see a definitive causation. But there are a myriad of ways that a good defensive team can lose one or two players and become a worse defensive team that go beyond the individual statistical impact. Maybe practices were way more competitive, maybe Biz' talking had become infectious last year and now that's been lost, maybe he simply tipped the balance in the lockerroom to a team that actually prided itself on its defense, and this year they're resting on their laurels? All these are possible, and whether you believe it or not, they can impact the numbers that you collect from the games later on.
The loss of Greer could be a major factor for similar reasons that you can't 'measure' but you can consider.
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jimmie wrote: View PostIf all you consider are numbers, agreed, it's hard to see a definitive causation. But there are a myriad of ways that a good defensive team can lose one or two players and become a worse defensive team that go beyond the individual statistical impact. Maybe practices were way more competitive, maybe Biz' talking had become infectious last year and now that's been lost, maybe he simply tipped the balance in the lockerroom to a team that actually prided itself on its defense, and this year they're resting on their laurels? All these are possible, and whether you believe it or not, they can impact the numbers that you collect from the games later on.
The loss of Greer could be a major factor for similar reasons that you can't 'measure' but you can consider.
At this point, not a single one of us has any idea what goes on in that locker room - we can only evaluate what happens on the floor. Making definitive statements about the team missing Biz purely based on locker room attitude is a bit of a stretch.
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DanH wrote: View PostAgain, you are spinning off onto another point. I'm making no claims about Biz's overall effectiveness or ability to start.
I am addressing specifically the claim that Biz's leaving is the cause of the defensive issues. When in reality, Biz's direct replacement in the rotation appears to anchor the team's best performing defensive lineups (which is good, as that's what we need in that spot) so the minutes Biz played for most of the year are largely unchanged defensively, and as such his leaving does not explain what has happened to the defence relative to what it was when he was off the court last season.
The loss of Greer could be a major factor for similar reasons that you can't 'measure' but you can consider.
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special1 wrote: View PostBiz also started 22 games last season.....our record was 15-7 in those starts (68% - Most without a good backup C because JV was injured)
Our overall winning percentage (68%) 56-26
Amazing that the percentage would remain pretty much the same.....and this without our starting C (and thus a good backup C because our good backup C became our starter) and our starting SF....
I guess my point is that Biz was a bigger difference than some would like to admit.
I am addressing specifically the claim that Biz's leaving is the cause of the defensive issues. When in reality, Biz's direct replacement in the rotation appears to anchor the team's best performing defensive lineups (which is good, as that's what we need in that spot) so the minutes Biz played for most of the year are largely unchanged defensively, and as such his leaving does not explain what has happened to the defence relative to what it was when he was off the court last season.
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DanH wrote: View PostThat would make perfect sense if our starting lineup was doing well but the bench had fallen apart, but that's not true. It's a drop across the board - with the smallest drop seemingly coming from the Biz to BeBe sub (as BeBe's on-court ratings are very good, and very similar to what Biz's were).
Our overall winning percentage (68%) 56-26
Amazing that the percentage would remain pretty much the same.....and this without our starting C (and thus a good backup C because our good backup C became our starter) and our starting SF....
I guess my point is that Biz was a bigger difference than some would like to admit.
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I've been reading posts in this and other threads, and keep coming back to these two things that people argue:
1) The reason Ross and JV aren't more integrated into the offense is because our offense is just fine and we don't need them to do more in order to score effectively.
2) The reason DeMar can't be asked to do more defensively is because he's carrying so much of the offense because it doesn't work without him doing so much.
Is it possible that these two things are linked?
Leave a comment:
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