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  • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    See I didn't take his comment on Lowry's height as a criticism, more in the lines of no matter how well he plays, how hard he tries or how we scheme, opponents will still shoot for a decent % because. In a way, it's anti-criticism.
    Same reason why Lowry often gets blocked on potential game winning drives to the basket. Probably wingspan, too. Not sure if there's data on Lowry, but it doesn't look that generous.

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    • Mess wrote: View Post
      I guess yeah. But the video is titled "Why The Raptors Defense Is Becoming Extinct" so I didn't exactly come into it with an open mind. ( Lowry hasn't shrunk this season has he?)

      Anyway, maybe I should actually give it a chance and watch the whole thing.


      Maybe.
      Coach Nick hates the Raptors. He's admitted as much before pretty much on twitter.

      Doesn't like the fact that we have an elite offense in the unconventional way rather than pretty passing and tiki-taka like Golden State. More than one way to skin a cat.

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      • I'm putting this here bc i think many of the traders are also D inclined.

        I'd like to make a case for RoCo. He's 3.1 drpm. #2 SF on D, #7 at any position in the league on D. He can guard multiple positions. Played pf last yr 73% of the time. Hes a good Dreb and his career 3% is decent, he seems to be chucking a lot this yr but I think he'd be fine in our roster with less usage. 6'9 215lbs 25 yrs old $1m per yr with next yr team option.
        Phillys forward rotations are an absolute mess and it only gets worse when simmons comes back. He will be 3/4 on D. And so is saric, plus Hollis at the 3.
        Demarre is .33 drpm, #27 SF. He has much less experience at pf and his rebounding is down. His career 3% is slightly higher than roco but generally he seems a damaged version of his ATL self. Roco seems more like the player that we thought we had bought.
        No need to make the case for noel, I know I've already sold you!
        Delon is coming back and we can't find room for norm either. Sully is coming back too. So:

        Carroll + Delon + 1st for noel + roco.

        We save $10m that helps us resign lowry, pat and noel (I'd be disappointed if we don't go into the luxury at this point anyway).

        I think we'd have a lot more flexibility in the front court. Both roco and noel are tweeners and vets that bring some experience we lack in siakam and bebe.

        Philly is not gonna like this deal but they're fucked. Carroll still saves them one yr and around 30m on Crabbe which is their best offer. They are well below the cap ceiling but Embiid will likely be maxed in 2 yrs. Delon is great, underrated but highly rated by those who know him and plenty of cheap rookie yrs. The pick allows them to replace roco at a position of need, for more yrs.

        It's not the move that puts us over the top but I think it makes us better. We clear some log jam and cap to resign and add talent. Masai made some minor mistakes with delon/cojo and demarre signing.

        D Lineup I'd like:

        Kyle/Norm/Roco/Pat/Noel
        Or
        swap jv for noel so you can hide jv on D and play inside out to get jv more touches. Let noel play behind demar to back him up on D.

        Siakam and poeltl can get some Dleague time. Bebe can help with injuries and becomes a trade chip/insurance policy. Sully can help with rebounding in certain matchups and spacing like going big with noel at the 4. Noel can help make up for Sully being fat on D. Perhaps this summer if jv learns to shoots 3 and goes to the Marc gasol school of D then noel and jv can play spot mins. Wishful thinking!

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        • Just because the "traders are D inclined" doesn't mean that the readers interested in discussing the defence are interested in trades. Keep it in the trade appropriate threads please.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • there isn't a trade that's going to make our defence so much better that it becomes our strength, because there's something wrong at the very basic level: nobody on this team is keeping anyone in front of them on the perimeter.

            Obviously JV is not cleaning up messes as effectively as biyombo, but honestly at this point i dont think it would even matter, because not even Tim Duncan could clean up the shitty perimeter defence being played on this team right now. guys who were good last year are getting beaten on straight line drives on almost every possession. It would be fantastic if valanciunas had better timing but it still wouldn't be enough.

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            • KHD wrote: View Post
              there isn't a trade that's going to make our defence so much better that it becomes our strength, because there's something wrong at the very basic level: nobody on this team is keeping anyone in front of them on the perimeter.

              Obviously JV is not cleaning up messes as effectively as biyombo, but honestly at this point i dont think it would even matter, because not even Tim Duncan could clean up the shitty perimeter defence being played on this team right now. guys who were good last year are getting beaten on straight line drives on almost every possession. It would be fantastic if valanciunas had better timing but it still wouldn't be enough.
              Yep, and our p'n'r coverage is still awful after the initial help on the screen. Anyone notice how all our bigs got shredded on it last night against the Hawks? Pat and Bebe's mobility didn't help in the slightest. And that's not really on them. You need to defend it as a team and if rotations don't happen it literally doesn't matter how quick you are.

              Also we are still going over the screen so much more than we should it's stupid. Schroder shoots a solid 3% but he's at his best penetrating. We even went over it on Bazemore at least a couple of times...he shoots a whopping 28% from 3. That's just not right.

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              • we also overhelp imho. on weakside and strong side, we have defenders leave their man to help in the paint but then when the ball swings around, our defender is trying to recover which lets the guy drive right by him.

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                • djsunyc wrote: View Post
                  we also overhelp imho. on weakside and strong side, we have defenders leave their man to help in the paint but then when the ball swings around, our defender is trying to recover which lets the guy drive right by him.
                  Yeah, definitely overhelp in terms of cheating. Lots of guys ending up in no position to really do anything. It's especially bad on the weak side, where guys frequently end up in poor position that offers no real help in the lane and they can't recover to the shooter...and in trying to recover they can also end up closing out out of control so they're not in a position to rebound either.

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                  • KHD wrote: View Post
                    there isn't a trade that's going to make our defence so much better that it becomes our strength, because there's something wrong at the very basic level: nobody on this team is keeping anyone in front of them on the perimeter.

                    Obviously JV is not cleaning up messes as effectively as biyombo, but honestly at this point i dont think it would even matter, because not even Tim Duncan could clean up the shitty perimeter defence being played on this team right now. guys who were good last year are getting beaten on straight line drives on almost every possession. It would be fantastic if valanciunas had better timing but it still wouldn't be enough.
                    Our 2nd and 3rd most used lineups have DRtg below 100. DD, jv, siakam are struggling on D. We're playing jv and DD heavy mins. It's partially about roster and balance imo.

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                    • lewro wrote: View Post
                      Our 2nd and 3rd most used lineups have DRtg below 100. DD, jv, siakam are struggling on D. We're playing jv and DD heavy mins. It's partially about roster and balance imo.
                      i don't see how that's different from what i'm saying.

                      I mean, if you make a massive trade and replace Derozan and JV with an elite perimeter defender and a shot-blocking center then ok, there's a trade that has a chance to make them good on D.

                      but under the assumption that we're locked in with Demar/Lowry, no, i don't think that you can "fix" the defence with a single trade, because the whole system is failing simply because nobody is keeping guys from walking into the paint.

                      This total apathy on the perimeter is the reason our defence sucks, and it's also a big reason we don't get any D-rebounds anymore. Nobody is ever in position because everyone is always scrambling.
                      Last edited by KHD; Sat Dec 17th, 2016, 10:54 AM.

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                      • Rebounding is an issue for sure.
                        Pat + starters has a better DRtg (less than 100) by 15 points than siakam. Same perimeter defenders. Personnel matters. Scheme, effort, etc. All important

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                        • lewro wrote: View Post
                          Our 2nd and 3rd most used lineups have DRtg below 100. DD, jv, siakam are struggling on D. We're playing jv and DD heavy mins. It's partially about roster and balance imo.
                          You're forgetting that DC has been bad too. So really, JV is supposedly responsible for not being able to hold a D together when pretty much none of the other 4 guys are giving good value on that end, except at times Lowry when he gives the effort (which he cant consistently due to offensive load). And still if you just swap out Siakam for Pat (the actual weakest link in our starting unit), the netrtg of that lineup is phenomenal and they're good on both ends. Carroll may be rounding into shape, but his D is still behind what we need from him, especially with the rookie issues at PF.

                          Why is our bench better? Well it's usually Pat, Cojo, Ross out there and they really hold the D together, and throw in Powell when he gets to play. Our perimeter D and general level of responsibility on that end skyrocket with our bench guys. Bebe can be aggressive chasing blocks as well (he frankly does little else very well on D). Lowry has a lighter load on both ends with Cojo in as well so he can be more aggressive defensively in those lineups.

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            You're forgetting that DC has been bad too. So really, JV is supposedly responsible for not being able to hold a D together when pretty much none of the other 4 guys are giving good value on that end, except at times Lowry when he gives the effort (which he cant consistently due to offensive load). And still if you just swap out Siakam for Pat (the actual weakest link in our starting unit), the netrtg of that lineup is phenomenal and they're good on both ends. Carroll may be rounding into shape, but his D is still behind what we need from him, especially with the rookie issues at PF.

                            Why is our bench better? Well it's usually Pat, Cojo, Ross out there and they really hold the D together, and throw in Powell when he gets to play. Our perimeter D and general level of responsibility on that end skyrocket with our bench guys. Bebe can be aggressive chasing blocks as well (he frankly does little else very well on D). Lowry has a lighter load on both ends with Cojo in as well so he can be more aggressive defensively in those lineups.

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                            Stats don't support your arguments, neither does my eye.
                            DC is part of the two best D lineups. He's not as advertised but he's not a black hole. He's scrapping by. 2 more years, into his 30s, at $30m, is not ideal for our needs imo. JV is statistically the worst starting defender and has the most responsibility. Siakam has had ups and downs. He's just not ready to be a key contributor for a #2 seed. No shame there, good pick. Bebe has been great defensively for a dleaguer. Just depends on the matchup and he needs to learn how to rebound. Positioning may come but I'm not convinced the weight will.
                            We're passable if we want to have a chance to get back to the ecf and lose with some ease. Several things to improve if we have a higher goal. I think we should. Tough decisions to make with some growing pains and risk imo. Likely Masai holds pat until the summer. I'd be a little more opportunistic but I'm playing with monopoly money and enjoying making it rain in my mind!

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                            • Edit:. DD is also terrible on D in the starting lineup. Didn't mean to omit him.

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                              • lewro wrote: View Post
                                Stats don't support your arguments, neither does my eye.
                                DC is part of the two best D lineups. He's not as advertised but he's not a black hole. He's scrapping by. 2 more years, into his 30s, at $30m, is not ideal for our needs imo. JV is statistically the worst starting defender and has the most responsibility. Siakam has had ups and downs. He's just not ready to be a key contributor for a #2 seed. No shame there, good pick. Bebe has been great defensively for a dleaguer. Just depends on the matchup and he needs to learn how to rebound. Positioning may come but I'm not convinced the weight will.
                                We're passable if we want to have a chance to get back to the ecf and lose with some ease. Several things to improve if we have a higher goal. I think we should. Tough decisions to make with some growing pains and risk imo. Likely Masai holds pat until the summer. I'd be a little more opportunistic but I'm playing with monopoly money and enjoying making it rain in my mind!
                                Then the stats and your eye test are flawed. Maybe you're suffering from confirmation bias. BTW, defensive metrics are all terrible. None of them pass the sniff test. All you have to do is look at rankings to see that they're obviously too flawed to trust.

                                Carroll has struggled in man D. That is what he was signed for. Although he competes there, he just isn't close to the level he was at in Atlanta. It's entirely possible it's related to physical issues, but that doesn't change his performance. He can't keep in front of his man near as well as he needs to, especially since he often guards the other team's best wing.

                                His team D can be alarmingly bad...he's often looking for steals...and he often gets caught standing still as his man cuts behind him. He can be pretty lost positionally off the ball in general. He can also be good at times as at least when he's not ball watching he's quite aggressive, but sometimes there he can be aggressive to a fault. The other night against Philly he sprinted at Embiid at the 3 pt line, who pump faked, drove and dished for an easy bucket. Carroll decided to leak out rather than try to close out under control...you're not going to block Embiid's shot if you're Carroll, and leaking out in that scenario is a horrible gamble. That's a wing defender flying by a big man at the 3pt line and taking himself out of the play. Aggressive? Sure. One of the worst defensive plays we've seen by a Raptor so far this season? Probably.

                                And he isn't rebounding well either, so he's not helping to complete defensive possessions.

                                The most generous I can be about Carroll is to say he's been mediocre defensively, but he's been inconsistent.
                                lewro wrote: View Post
                                Stats don't support your arguments, neither does my eye.
                                DC is part of the two best D lineups. He's not as advertised but he's not a black hole. He's scrapping by. 2 more years, into his 30s, at $30m, is not ideal for our needs imo. JV is statistically the worst starting defender and has the most responsibility. Siakam has had ups and downs. He's just not ready to be a key contributor for a #2 seed. No shame there, good pick. Bebe has been great defensively for a dleaguer. Just depends on the matchup and he needs to learn how to rebound. Positioning may come but I'm not convinced the weight will.
                                We're passable if we want to have a chance to get back to the ecf and lose with some ease. Several things to improve if we have a higher goal. I think we should. Tough decisions to make with some growing pains and risk imo. Likely Masai holds pat until the summer. I'd be a little more opportunistic but I'm playing with monopoly money and enjoying making it rain in my mind!

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