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How do we fix our defense?

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  • Lupe wrote: View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't DeMar play like just as much with the starters as JV does? And it's not like his DD+Bench unit has been amazing either like Lowry+Bench this year.

    Seems like we're just finding reasons for everything now. He has by far the worst dRTG there, but somehow it's the fault of the lineups he's in and other players and not his own.
    DeMar regularly anchors bench units while Lowry sits.
    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't DeMar play like just as much with the starters as JV does? And it's not like his DD+Bench unit has been amazing either like Lowry+Bench this year.

      Seems like we're just finding reasons for everything now. He has by far the worst dRTG there, but somehow it's the fault of the lineups he's in and other players and not his own.
      DeRozan has spent 321 of his 1236 minutes in our usual starting lineup (26%), and 533 of his 1236 minutes with Siakam on the floor with him (43%).

      JV has spent 321 of his 884 minutes in our usual starting lineup (36%), and 479 of his 884 minutes with Siakam on the floor with him (54%).

      Of those excess minutes with Siakam outside the usual starting lineup, many are the starting lineup when Carroll sits, or a quick Ross sub some games. DD has about 50 extra minutes more than JV, which would be minutes spent with him in bench units, where he is much more effective against lesser opposition.

      You are right that the DD + bench unit has not been great - but it has still been better than the starting unit, and it's a pretty low minutes lineup (79 MP total). DeRozan actually has a bunch of bench units he gets used in (since the main one hasn't worked great this makes sense). But for the most part, DD's bench unit time is far less than Lowry's (as evidenced by their 35 and 37 MPG averages respectively), and most of his non-starting unit minutes actually come in other transitional lineups - like bench units with both Lowry and DD out there, or the closing lineup with JV and Pat, or various small ball units with both he and Lowry.

      Why does JV have a DRTG of 106.5 with Pat and 110.5 with Siakam? Is he a 4 points worse defender sometimes, or does it have something to do with who he is playing with? JV absolutely is not a great defender. But everything over the past two seasons points to him being put in basically the worst possible position to succeed on that end.

      JV's detractors are more than happy to suggest that his high efficiency scoring and even some of his rebounding is because of the role he is in and the players he plays with. Why is it so crazy to suggest that his defensive performance, the aspect of the game that is most a team effort compared to an individual one, is also affected by his teammates, when we've seen the exact same pattern for two years now of him playing more of his minutes beside the worst player on the team than anyone else?
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • S.R. wrote: View Post
        DeMar regularly anchors bench units while Lowry sits.
        Anchor is a good word for that DeRozan-CoJo pairing (sans Lowry), i.e., it sinks the team. I don't have the net rating numbers for CoJo-DD, but I would expect it to be negative.

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          Anchor is a good word for that DeRozan-CoJo pairing (sans Lowry), i.e., it sinks the team. I don't have the net rating numbers for CoJo-DD, but I would expect it to be negative.
          bbref per 100 possessions, 100+ minutes together, Cojo-DD are -7.9, 3rd worst pairing. The only worse pairings are Kyle-Poeltl -8.6 and Cojo-JV -11.0.
          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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          • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
            bbref per 100 possessions, 100+ minutes together, Cojo-DD are -7.9, 3rd worst pairing. The only worse pairings are Kyle-Poeltl -8.6 and Cojo-JV -11.0.
            Thx - it confirms the eye test. A ball dominant PG who can't keep the opposition defense honest with the consistent threat of a 3-pt shot is a major liability in today's NBA (e.g. Rubio, Rondo, etc...). Although CoJo is shooting a very nice 3P% (.378), but his 3-pt attempts per FG rate (3PAr) is way too low (.169). Combine CoJo with DeMar's 3PAr (.073) + almost all of our bigs, except Patterson and you've got a huge spacing problem from the get-go.

            Which is why I couldn't believe the CoJo-DD-Ross-Siakam-JV lineup that Casey rolled out a few games ago. It's almost shocking to see only one 3-pt shooter on the floor in today's NBA. Ideally, you've got at least 2, if not 3. CoJo-DeMar (sans Lowry) just cripples your lineup choices right off the bat.
            Last edited by golden; Fri Jan 6th, 2017, 03:45 PM.

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            • All the numbers.....All the stats.....

              Demar - Cojo.... JV - Cojo
              Demar - Siakem..... JV - Siakem

              Recent defensive rating for each player....blah blah blah

              Yet, some are still missing the elephant in the room. Your starting C cannot be your worst defender if you have championship aspirations...... Stop the BS.....stop the jokes and the misdirections and admit it!

              That's a start on how to fix the defense. Fix the anchor or get one.

              quick question.....why aren't the other big's numbers as affected by our horrible perimeter defence as JV's seems to be?

              Looking at PPat and Bebe's December DRT they're so much lower than i would've expected.....
              Last edited by special1; Fri Jan 6th, 2017, 01:59 PM.

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              • special1 wrote: View Post
                All the numbers.....All the stats.....

                Demar - Cojo.... JV - Cojo
                Demar - Siakem..... JV - Siakem

                Recent defensive rating for each player....blah blah blah

                Yet, some are still missing the elephant in the room. Your starting C cannot be your worst defender if you have championship aspirations...... Stop the BS.....stop the jokes and the misdirections and admit it!

                That's a start on how to fix the defense. Fix the anchor or get one.

                quick question.....why aren't the other big's numbers as affected by our horrible perimeter defence as JV's seems to be?
                Wait, did you just dismiss all the stats to make your point then ask a question about the stats to reinforce your point? This leaves me confused as to whether or not stats can be included in my reply.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • S.R. wrote: View Post
                  Wait, did you just dismiss all the stats to make your point then ask a question about the stats to reinforce your point? This leaves me confused as to whether or not stats can be included in my reply.
                  Wait, did you just do what i said not to? Make a joke, misdirect, bs.....lol

                  I'm actually acknowledging the numbers. All the numbers i'm seeing are pointing to JV being the worst defender on the team (and that's saying something as we have some pretty bad defenders - looking at the numbers)......What are you seeing?
                  Last edited by special1; Fri Jan 6th, 2017, 02:09 PM.

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                  • special1 wrote: View Post
                    Wait, did you just do what i said not to? Make a joke, misdirect, bs.....lol

                    I'm actually acknowledging the numbers. All the numbers i'm seeing are pointing to JV being the worst defender on the team (and that's saying something as we have some pretty bad defenders - looking at the numbers)......What are you seeing?
                    All the numbers? Which numbers exactly are those?

                    Second on the team in defensive WS. Above CoJo, DeMar and Ross in DBPM. 4th on the team in individual DRTG.

                    His on-court DRTG is the worst on the team. Is that one number the "all the numbers" you were seeing? On court ratings without context are the sorts of things you're going to want to avoid drawing big conclusions from, unless you really think Tyler Hansbrough was a superstar for that 2014-15 Raptors team.

                    He's a sub par defender. He's nowhere near the worst on the team - he's capable with the right teammates around him, and in most matchups. Not great. But this is getting silly with the hyperbole.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • Sub-par defender is just not going to cut it at that position. Sorry. Defense is just too important at the center spot. We are going to get absolutely punished by the best teams in the league for it.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Thx - it confirms the eye test. A ball dominant PG who can't keep the opposition defense honest with the consistent threat of a 3-pt shot is a major liability in today's NBA (e.g. Rubio, Rondo, etc...). Although CoJo is shooting a very nice 3P% (.378), but his 3-pt attempts per FG rate (3PAr) is way too low (.169). Combine CoJo with DeMar's 3PAr (.073) + almost all of our bigs, except Patterson and you've got a huge spacing problem from the get-go.

                        Which is why I couldn't believe the CoJo-DD-Ross-Siakam-JV lineup that Casey rolled out a few games ago. It's almost shocking to see only one 3-pt shooter on the floor in today's NBA. Ideally, you've got at least 2, if not 3. CoJo-DeMar (sans Lowry) just cripples your lineup choices right off the bat.
                        This is why I've been advocating giving CoJo's role to Powell and trading him for a while now.

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                        • Jv is a good defensive rebounder. That's helps, especially since pat is not.
                          Whether jv is tolerable at 106 DRtg with pat or intolerable with siakam at 111 DRtg (kinda ball parking here), imo it's not championship level defense either way and that should be the point/goal.
                          No easy task to turn him into that player or to trade for that player.
                          Millsap, at the right price, would be a step forward, see how it goes from there.

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                          • Think I posted in the wrong thread*
                            Last edited by Lupe; Fri Jan 6th, 2017, 06:40 PM.

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                            • jesus what is this bullshit? how are people coming to some fucked up conclusion that one of the main reasons this team won't win a championship is because of JV's defense????

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                              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                                Sub-par defender is just not going to cut it at that position. Sorry. Defense is just too important at the center spot. We are going to get absolutely punished by the best teams in the league for it.
                                That's a perfectly acceptable argument that I disagree with. But it is a very different one than the ridiculous hyperbole that gets thrown around.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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