How do we fix our defense?

[Mess]

If we're talking about defense only, how come nobody is saying trade DeMar?

[DanH]

Seems to me you said bebe was equal to noel as a rebounder and that they're both poor which is statistically not true. I said he was decent, now you seem to agree. Not to mention we have jv and sully who's only skill on defense is rebounding.
We've never discussed dbpm, etc before. You generated the list and did not include noel. I corrected your omission. And now that noel proves greatly superior by the metric that you quoted youre dismissing it and saying we already talked about it? Lol

Both would be fine as PF's, and are poor as centres. How is that difficult to understand? It's literally exactly what I said in my post.

We've certainly covered Noel's BPM/RPM ratings before because I pointed out a while ago that just like Biz, he gives his defensive contributions back on the other end.

[DanH]

Marc gasol dbpm:

Rookie season. 1.5
Best season. 4.4
Career. 3

He improved every yr and never dropped below 2 dbpm.
This is not Jonas, at all!

Marc Gasol rookie season: 24 years old
JV's current season: 24 years old

Let's not pretend we have a real sample to compare the two to each other defensively. Age and experience are the keys to solid big man defence - whether the centre is a high flying shot blocker or not.

[white men can't jump]

Marc Gasol rookie season: 24 years old
JV's current season: 24 years old

Let's not pretend we have a real sample to compare the two to each other defensively. Age and experience are the keys to solid big man defence - whether the centre is a high flying shot blocker or not.

Marc Gasol also had prime Tony Allen and generally great perimeter D in front of him. It was the joke of him winning DPOY, where even he was surprised because mostly he just had to stand where Allen or Conley forced their man. Lots of people thought Allen got robbed that year (and im not even a big fan of his).

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[DanH]

Lol

You quoted a dbpm with a list and cut off of 3.
Neither bebe or biz has achieved that in their careers except for a 9 game sample this year. Noel has a 3.4 playing out of position and 4.5 playing centre. That's twice as good as bebe and biz career bests.

In terms of drpm. Noel was top 5 at his position and top 20 at any position, in his 20yr old rookie season. He was top 20 playing out of position and top 40 at any position, in his sophomore 21 yr old season.

The topic is how to improve our defense. You don't include a top 5 player on your list or think that he could help us? Especially when the guy has been linked to our team for 6 months and your responding to other members advocating him!?
This reeks of bias and bad science.

I quoted a DRPM list and a cutoff of +3 and Noel had a +2.3 DRPM last year. I would have missed him anyway as he was listed as a PF by ESPN. I'm not tailoring the lists in any way besides what I explicitly state.

[lewro]

Both would be fine as PF's, and are poor as centres. How is that difficult to understand? It's literally exactly what I said in my post.

We've certainly covered Noel's BPM/RPM ratings before because I pointed out a while ago that just like Biz, he gives his defensive contributions back on the other end.

now he is fine as pf? as i recall you said he was a terrible pf and i said he's better as a centre.

we've discussed his dbpm? then why didn't you include it on your list? why are you still saying he is equal to biz and bebe? i dont think ive ever had this conversation with you before because ive never seen those stats and frankly i dont know what it even proves or put much value into it. you generated the list. you omitted data. yeah, i have a hard time understanding that.

you're the stats guy here dan, not me. you have egg all over your face, so own it. everybody is wrong some time. you were wrong about norm and this. i'm wrong once a day, every day and twice on sunday. the conversation is about improving our team and specifically our defense. jvs not getting traded, cory is not michael jordan. it's ok.

[jimmie]

Marc Gasol rookie season: 24 years old
JV's current season: 24 years old

Let's not pretend we have a real sample to compare the two to each other defensively. Age and experience are the keys to solid big man defence - whether the centre is a high flying shot blocker or not.

But you're the one who compared them!

Also, age and experience are certainly not the keys to solid big man defence. What's your basis for that statement? Defense requires some semblance of natural athleticism, a lot of desire, and above all, defensive basketball IQ. You can get better at it, but it does require some natural ability and a real desire to put in the work on that end.

JV seems to lack all three in various degrees. He could get better, but personally I see a lot of Demar -- the defensive mindset isn't quite there and probably isn't inherent in him.

And similar to your point about Bebe being a comparable C to Biz, if you don't see what a massive upgrade a health Noel would be over anything we currently have on our bench (outside of Sullinger, and it's possible he never plays a minute for Toronto), then there's not a lot of middle ground to discuss re: Noel.

It really does seem like you'll do pretty much anything to discredit anyone even suggesting JV should be in the trade discussion.

[lewro]

I quoted a DRPM list and a cutoff of +3 and Noel had a +2.3 DRPM last year. I would have missed him anyway as he was listed as a PF by ESPN. I'm not tailoring the lists in any way besides what I explicitly state.

you said centers with a drpm above 3. noel played pf last year. the year previous he played center. drpm 3.35. top 8 at his position, top 20 league wide.

you continued to list bebe and biz dbpm in the same quote. noel was twice as good in this category, as previously stated.

[lewro]

Marc Gasol rookie season: 24 years old
JV's current season: 24 years old

Let's not pretend we have a real sample to compare the two to each other defensively. Age and experience are the keys to solid big man defence - whether the centre is a high flying shot blocker or not.

you made the comp.

im comping noel. he was 20 when he put up those stats. athleticism counts and is natural. you don't just pick some up off an espn spreadsheet.

bebe is 24
biz is 90?

you made those comps. lots of guys on your drpm list have different ages.

jv is not a good defender. hes not trending toward marc gasol. his dbpm is getting worse this yr - at age 24. he was better as a rookie.

[Lupe]

Defense is 33% athleticism, 33% IQ, 33% effort and 1% luck. Elite defenders have athleticism, IQ and luck, good defenders have two of those factors, below average to average defenders have 1 and sieves have zero.

[S.R.]

50%!? I'm talking about one or two guys for one bench player and maybe a starter.
Why can we talk about the actual problems and hypothesize how to resolve them, including trade? Do you think we are beating the cavs as constructed?

I was referring to an actual poster who does what I described regularly, not you. Can't remember his name tho.

[golden]

A lot of talk about the "effect of Bismack" on the team last season. I think it was huge, when you look from the lens of how it helped Kyle and DeMar conserve energy on defense. Lowry, in particular, moreso than Biz. Casey's offense and defense systems really put a high energy tax on Lowry and Biz fit like a glove with Kyle. Biz is probably a good fit on specific teams that have high usage scoring guard/wings (Raps, Blazers, GSW, etc...) but probably not on the Magic.

There was an article during training camp about losing Biz and how the team hoped to make up for it, collectively. Some nice quotes in there, directly from the key players (Lowry & DD) + Casey....

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/...ombo-1.3786466

Kyle Lowry says there were times last season when the Toronto Raptors wouldn't worry about being half a step behind on defence.

They weren't being lazy, they just knew Bismack Biyombo was guarding the basket and more than happy to deal with anything that came his way.

"You'd get beat and you'd say: 'Biz is there,"' said Lowry, quickly adding: "Biz is not there now."

No, the six-foot-nine Biyombo won't be there anymore, having moved on from the Raptors after one memorable year with the team. He gained near folk-hero status with fans in the regular season before being thrust into the playoff spotlight when centre Jonas Valanciunas was felled by an ankle injury.

There was shot blocking and ferocious rebounding — a franchise-record 26 boards in one post-season win — not to mention the odd finger wag or Usain Bolt-like pose for the crowds at Air Canada Centre.

But knowing he could cash in this summer, Biyombo opted out of his contract after the Raptors were eliminated in the Eastern Conference final and eventually signed a lucrative free-agent deal in Orlando.

"Last season we were able to be 0.8 seconds late or even a second late and Biz would be back there to clean up," said Lowry, Toronto's starting point guard. "This year we have to be a second early to make sure that we make up for the shot blocking that we don't have."

A native of the Democratic Republic of Congo, Biyombo averaged eight rebounds and 1.6 blocks in 22 minutes a game for Toronto in 2015-'16. He didn't offer much at the offensive end, but it was his work ethic and leadership — despite being just 23 years old — that most endeared him to teammates and fans.

And while Valanciunas is healthy again, Biyombo's departure leaves a massive hole in the rotation off the bench.

"I love Biz to death, but he's not here," said Raptors head coach Dwane Casey. "All I'm concerned about now is going forward."

The way forward is a bit unclear at this point as Toronto prepares for its first exhibition game on Saturday against the Golden State Warriors in Vancouver.

Replacing big man

The Raptors have three players at training camp they hope can fill the void — 2016 first-round picks Jakob Poeltl and Pascal Siakam, along with second-year man Lucas Nogueira — but Casey isn't expecting any one of those untested youngsters to step up on his own.

"It's going to be by committee," he said. "We need rim protection, we need paint protection from those big guys."

Toronto added power forward Jared Sullinger, who could play centre if Casey decides to go small. But the Raptors know they need to recommit to team defence, regardless of the personnel.

"Everybody's got to step in and bring everything they can, especially defensively, and understand that was what got us where we were last year," said guard DeMar DeRozan. "It's tough to replace a guy like Biz, but we've got to figure out ways. It's got to be a collective effort with everybody."

And while no one is expecting Biyombo's replacement to completely fill the charismatic centre's shoes, Casey is confident the job can be done.

"They're not going to be the high-flying, shot-blocking, energetic type," he said. "They may be more cerebral ... anticipation, getting to a spot, understanding the schemes a little bit more, playing within the schemes. The schemes will take care of it if you're where you're supposed to be."

[DanH]

Sigh. I said Noel was a fine rebounder as a PF. He's completely unuseable offensively. He's still pretty bad offensively as a C, but his rebounding goes from fine to poor. Why is this such a difficult communication?

I compared JV to Marc Gasol to impress upon people the importance of age - and the lack of the necessity for guys who can be lightning quick and jump out of the gym. Tim Duncan wasn't the swiftest on his feet either and he made it work at PF and C for a couple decades. I'm not saying JV will ever be as good a defender as those guys - I'd bet he won't - but I am saying that he can certainly be an adequate defender with more experience (and as he continues to work toward his ideal conditioning after the massive weight gain from his early seasons).

[lewro]

But you're the one who compared them!

Also, age and experience are certainly not the keys to solid big man defence. What's your basis for that statement? Defense requires some semblance of natural athleticism, a lot of desire, and above all, defensive basketball IQ. You can get better at it, but it does require some natural ability and a real desire to put in the work on that end.

JV seems to lack all three in various degrees. He could get better, but personally I see a lot of Demar -- the defensive mindset isn't quite there and probably isn't inherent in him.

And similar to your point about Bebe being a comparable C to Biz, if you don't see what a massive upgrade a health Noel would be over anything we currently have on our bench (outside of Sullinger, and it's possible he never plays a minute for Toronto), then there's not a lot of middle ground to discuss re: Noel.

It really does seem like you'll do pretty much anything to discredit anyone even suggesting JV should be in the trade discussion.

this. dan is worried that jv will lose his job. first, we would have both players on the roster. we need all the talent we can get to face lebron. second, if noel plays better and improves our team than isn't that the point? do i want to hang on to a player that loses because he has a good fg% on low volume? NO! If jv plays better than we resign Noel and trade him for a better player and a better fit than cory. that's an upgrade. we have 4 pgs. cory has one more guaranteed yr after this one. delon seems to be capable and norm seems more than capable. both guys are signed for much cheaper and in the case of delon, longer than cory. cory's value will go down once delon comes back. then we have a log jam, similar to the philly fire sale.

[S.R.]

This isn't really a thread about "how to fix the defense." This is a thread of "I want to convince everybody else that the team needs to make some trades right now because they miss Biyombo. Disagreeing with me for whatever reason is illegitimate."

The coaches and the guys wearing the jerseys have to fix this problem. Working out kinks in the first couple months of the season is not uncommon at all (remember how horrid the offense looked to start last year). We know Masai is not reactionary with roster moves and we know that Casey is not reactionary with lineup changes. Carroll needs to be healthier and play better (looked better in Houston) and the rest of the team needs to get their shit together. That's a boring answer, but it's true right now. The season is only a month old.