How do we fix our defense?

[planetmars]

this. dan is worried that jv will lose his job. first, we would have both players on the roster. we need all the talent we can get to face lebron. second, if noel plays better and improves our team than isn't that the point? do i want to hang on to a player that loses because he has a good fg% on low volume? NO! If jv plays better than we resign Noel and trade him for a better player and a better fit than cory. that's an upgrade. we have 4 pgs. cory has one more guaranteed yr after this one. delon seems to be capable and norm seems more than capable. both guys are signed for much cheaper and in the case of delon, longer than cory. cory's value will go down once delon comes back. then we have a log jam, similar to the philly fire sale.

We'd have 5 centers if you brought in Noel. If resigning and trading Noel is easy than Philly would have already moved him. He's going to command at least $14M a year. That's the going rate for center's coming off their rookie salaries.

And we need a backup PG that can quarter back an offense. It's not as simple as plugging in Powell or even Wright. Powell is not a PG. Wright hasn't had time to gel with the team yet due to his injury which is unfortunate. If Wright had a chance to play then I'd probably view my position on CoJo differently.

[Lupe]

Judging Noel's ability to rebound off his 2nd year at age 21 and just saying he's poor is lazy and just wrong.

Look at Tyson Chandler for example. Similar frame coming in, long not a lot of muscle. As he grew into his body and adjusted to the NBA he went from a 15% REB% in his 2nd season (like Noel) to being right up around 19-20% for most of his career. Noel can reach those kind of numbers and has more potential than Chandler on the defensive end due to his ability to strip and defend passing lanes at a high level as well (something Chandler wasn't quite known for). We're not talking about acquiring a finished article here. We're talking about capitalizing on a player who likely has no real role laid out for him at his current team who could blossom into something really special with consistent PT on a good team.

[Lupe]

We'd have 5 centers if you brought in Noel. If resigning and trading Noel is easy than Philly would have already moved him. He's going to command at least $14M a year. That's the going rate for center's coming off their rookie salaries.

And we need a backup PG that can quarter back an offense. It's not as simple as plugging in Powell or even Wright. Powell is not a PG. Wright hasn't had time to gel with the team yet due to his injury which is unfortunate. If Wright had a chance to play then I'd probably view my position on CoJo differently.

$14M per year is not that much money in the current NBA and I'd pay that in a heartbeat for Noel. He'd likely cost more than that, given that Mozgov was like $16M per year.

[jimmie]

This isn't really a thread about "how to fix the defense." This is a thread of "I want to convince everybody else that the team needs to make some trades right now because they miss Biyombo. Disagreeing with me for whatever reason is illegitimate."

Wow, this is so NOT what this thread is about. Your view of it, though, reflects the tenor of this thread, and others. One side is "stay the course, things will improve organically", the other is "at least consider changes because even staying the course and replicating last year is not beating the Cavs". It's not about one side being right or wrong (or shouldn't be), it's allowing the discussion to exist without pretending the other side doesn't know a thing about basketball.

[Cody73]

We'd have 5 centers if you brought in Noel. If resigning and trading Noel is easy than Philly would have already moved him. He's going to command at least $14M a year. That's the going rate for center's coming off their rookie salaries.

And we need a backup PG that can quarter back an offense. It's not as simple as plugging in Powell or even Wright. Powell is not a PG. Wright hasn't had time to gel with the team yet due to his injury which is unfortunate. If Wright had a chance to play then I'd probably view my position on CoJo differently.

We got Freddie with the 905 who can step in. As for Noel, I honestly don't like the fit. We need a floor spacer as well as a rim protector.

I feel Bruno might be that guy. He's looked impressive on defence in his 3 games with the 905, has length & can rebound along with block shots. He has lost moments, but I think the time to play him is now, not later.

[planetmars]

$14M per year is not that much money in the current NBA and I'd pay that in a heartbeat for Noel. He'd likely cost more than that, given that Mozgov was like $16M per year.

Right.. and so our back up center would be making about as much as the starting center. Who can't really be traded unless a star is available. Plus we'd most likely lose 2Pat in the process because money would get really tight for Masai.

Pretty risky if you ask me.

[lewro]

Sigh. I said Noel was a fine rebounder as a PF. He's completely unuseable offensively. He's still pretty bad offensively as a C, but his rebounding goes from fine to poor. Why is this such a difficult communication?

I compared JV to Marc Gasol to impress upon people the importance of age - and the lack of the necessity for guys who can be lightning quick and jump out of the gym. Tim Duncan wasn't the swiftest on his feet either and he made it work at PF and C for a couple decades. I'm not saying JV will ever be as good a defender as those guys - I'd bet he won't - but I am saying that he can certainly be an adequate defender with more experience (and as he continues to work toward his ideal conditioning after the massive weight gain from his early seasons).

please sigh, you need to take a deep breath. you quoted a bunch of stats and you were wrong. it's ok. the sky will not fall. it's not a big deal. we are trying to have an earnest discussion about improving our defense in this thread. noel can clearly do that. we have good rebounders, as i've said numerous times. were not trading jv for noel. we get to have both. jv is not gonna evaporate at the sight of noel. it's ok.

this thread is not about the offence. we are elite at offence. jv gets 10 or 12 pts/gm? noel avg 11 pts last yr. he's not "completely unuseable", get real! jv will still be on the team. when we play nurkic - in ya go jv. ultimately, every move should be geared toward lebron tho. that's the main objective. ultimately, this thread is about improving our defense, right Dan? no one is trying to throw jv out the window. it's ok.

you can try to impress all you want but we're adults with our own opinions, thx! jv is not marc gasol. no one thinks that. that's not an impressive statement. hes not trending that way. not by the metrics, not by anyone's eye but yours.

take a few more breathes and ask yourself whether you're worried about the defense or worried about losing jv? seems the latter. which is understandable (i'd hate to lose norm) but we need to do what is best for the team. i think for now, that includes jv. but we 100% need help, particularly on defence. We are clearly outclassed by our rival contenders - by a lot! Noel is amazing at defence and available right now on fire sale.

[lewro]

We don't need this?

[jimmie]

Right.. and so our back up center would be making about as much as the starting center. Who can't really be traded unless a star is available. Plus we'd most likely lose 2Pat in the process because money would get really tight for Masai.

Pretty risky if you ask me.

2Pat is gone regardless, in my opinion. I know he's really popular in these parts, but he's eminently replaceable and will be too expensive to keep. You have to think the allusions in pre-season by Masai/Casey to Siakam being 'starter material in year 2' were more than just hyperbole -- I think they've seen the writing on the wall re: Pat for a couple of years. He came in on a fantastic deal, but he's going to make a lot more next contract and I don't think he's worth it. Masai knows this PF hole is likely going to get bigger come July.

Backup C and starting C making the same money? Who cares, as long as they are both happy with their roles? If Noel worked out in TO this season as a backup to JV, then perhaps JV does turn into the trade chip that brings back a star 4. It doesn't all have to happen this season, either; getting Noel now and dealing with any conflicts/overlap/etc. in the offseason is not a limiting move, as long as you give up the right pieces for him.

[S.R.]

Wow, this is so NOT what this thread is about. Your view of it, though, reflects the tenor of this thread, and others. One side is "stay the course, things will improve organically", the other is "at least consider changes because even staying the course and replicating last year is not beating the Cavs". It's not about one side being right or wrong (or shouldn't be), it's allowing the discussion to exist without pretending the other side doesn't know a thing about basketball.

Yeow, don't know how you pulled that out of my comment, even after re-reading it.

I've got no problem with strong opinions from each side, love the discussion, and will state my opinion just as clearly as I'm happy to see anyone else state theirs. No intention to shut down a discussion, I think what I wrote is true, my apologies if there's a certain "tenor" to the comment, it wasn't intended. I don't take the opinions/disagreements here personally at all nor do I expect people to agree with me. Disagreements basically keep the forum going.

[MixxAOR]

You guys are saying Noel is a difference between beating Cavs or losing to Cavs?

[Lupe]

You guys are saying Noel is a difference between beating Cavs or losing to Cavs?

This thread isn't about the Cavs, it's about improving our defense. Which yes, some of us think Noel would do.

[S.R.]

We don't need this?

Do you know what is happening more often than that right now? This:

[Barolt]

You guys are saying Noel is a difference between beating Cavs or losing to Cavs?

The Cavs thrive from 3pt range. I have no idea what role a rim protector plays in defending that.

We need to tighten our perimeter rotations to beat them.

[jimmie]

Yeow, don't know how you pulled that out of my comment, even after re-reading it.

I've got no problem with strong opinions from each side, love the discussion, and will state my opinion just as clearly as I'm happy to see anyone else state theirs. No intention to shut down a discussion, I think what I wrote is true, my apologies if there's a certain "tenor" to the comment, it wasn't intended. I don't take the opinions/disagreements here personally at all nor do I expect people to agree with me. Disagreements basically keep the forum going.

Wasn't specifically directed at you. But there's a sense on this forum that if you don't bring stats to the table, you don't have a valid opinion. While I would suggest that, if ALL you bring to the table are stats, and you can't even clearly state/prove that those stats mean what you think they mean in propping up your opinion, that's just as invalid/incomplete an opinion.

As Dan mentioned before, none of us has a damn clue. It's just tiresome to have some evidently think that they have more of a clue than others.