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  • Barolt wrote: View Post
    The Cavs thrive from 3pt range. I have no idea what role a rim protector plays in defending that.

    We need to tighten our perimeter rotations to beat them.
    A big who has the footspeed to hedge effectively on the perimeter actually plays a big role in preventing easy 3 point opportunities off screens fwiw.

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      This thread isn't about the Cavs, it's about improving our defense. Which yes, some of us think Noel would do.
      I would disagree pretty readily that the addition of Noel less the pieces that would have to go the other way to get him would close the gap between the current roster and the Cavs.
      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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      • jimmie wrote: View Post
        2Pat is gone regardless, in my opinion. I know he's really popular in these parts, but he's eminently replaceable and will be too expensive to keep. You have to think the allusions in pre-season by Masai/Casey to Siakam being 'starter material in year 2' were more than just hyperbole -- I think they've seen the writing on the wall re: Pat for a couple of years. He came in on a fantastic deal, but he's going to make a lot more next contract and I don't think he's worth it. Masai knows this PF hole is likely going to get bigger come July.

        Backup C and starting C making the same money? Who cares, as long as they are both happy with their roles? If Noel worked out in TO this season as a backup to JV, then perhaps JV does turn into the trade chip that brings back a star 4. It doesn't all have to happen this season, either; getting Noel now and dealing with any conflicts/overlap/etc. in the offseason is not a limiting move, as long as you give up the right pieces for him.
        Saying we can trade JV for a PF later is actually pretty difficult. What PF, who? What team? Does that team need a center? It's much easier said than done. I've looked. Every capable PF out there has a center on their roster already. All except for maybe Kevin Love.. and frankly I'd be shocked if the Cavs traded him.

        2Pat may not be important to this team going forward, but should be more important than a backup center.

        I have no problems trading JV, heck I came up with an idea in the JV thread (Capela/Ariza). But we need a plan. You go after Noel this year and we most likely lose our backup PG, and we have 5 centers that we have to probably get minutes too. That seems like a bad way to design a team. And what happens if JV can't get you a PF? Look what happened with Monroe in Detroit and now Milwaukee. Bad use of an asset.

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        • lewro wrote: View Post
          please sigh, you need to take a deep breath. you quoted a bunch of stats and you were wrong. it's ok. the sky will not fall. it's not a big deal. we are trying to have an earnest discussion about improving our defense in this thread. noel can clearly do that. we have good rebounders, as i've said numerous times. were not trading jv for noel. we get to have both. jv is not gonna evaporate at the sight of noel. it's ok.

          this thread is not about the offence. we are elite at offence. jv gets 10 or 12 pts/gm? noel avg 11 pts last yr. he's not "completely unuseable", get real! jv will still be on the team. when we play nurkic - in ya go jv. ultimately, every move should be geared toward lebron tho. that's the main objective. ultimately, this thread is about improving our defense, right Dan? no one is trying to throw jv out the window. it's ok.

          you can try to impress all you want but we're adults with our own opinions, thx! jv is not marc gasol. no one thinks that. that's not an impressive statement. hes not trending that way. not by the metrics, not by anyone's eye but yours.

          take a few more breathes and ask yourself whether you're worried about the defense or worried about losing jv? seems the latter. which is understandable (i'd hate to lose norm) but we need to do what is best for the team. i think for now, that includes jv. but we 100% need help, particularly on defence. We are clearly outclassed by our rival contenders - by a lot! Noel is amazing at defence and available right now on fire sale.
          Well is JV actually the problem though? I havent seen a single compelling argument that he is. If the problem is mostly that we're having too many breakdowns on the perimeter, then getting a better rim protector doesnt in itself solve this.

          Who has been our best defender in the starting unit? Like don't list stats, just think back at the games so far and think about it. Has JV not been our most consistent defender? His positioning has taken another step forward. His quickness has been fine for what's expected of a centre. He still needs to improve his awareness/reaction time in certain situations, but i dont think he's been making that many mistakes. And our defensive issues with him on the court have come mostly when we let the game speed up, which we should try like hell to avoid, and i think would be a disaster in the long term/playoffs even if we had a better bailout/recovery defender at C. It would encourage us to play a style we cant sustain and that elite teams will beat us at.

          Meanwhile he also has the bulk to deal with the bullies of the league, something many "rim protectors" do not. Even Biz, who's ripped at his size, could not consistently deal with stronger players on the glass/in the post.

          JV is not the problem at all so far this year. They need to settle into a consistent pace, and perimeter guys need to pick it up. JV was matched against a small ball team last night and destroyed them, and his D was good in the halfcourt except when we let the pace get away from us. Demarre and Demar had probably their best defensive efforts this season and the D looked a lot better.

          Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post
            We'd have 5 centers if you brought in Noel. If resigning and trading Noel is easy than Philly would have already moved him. He's going to command at least $14M a year. That's the going rate for center's coming off their rookie salaries.

            And we need a backup PG that can quarter back an offense. It's not as simple as plugging in Powell or even Wright. Powell is not a PG. Wright hasn't had time to gel with the team yet due to his injury which is unfortunate. If Wright had a chance to play then I'd probably view my position on CoJo differently.
            we have two rookie centers and one fat broken tweener. that's gonna beat lebron? how much do you think we will spend at pg next season 35-40m? center maybe 35-40m (with noel)? being in the luxury is just the ante to contend at this point. plus we can trade noel for more value resigned than what cory is worth - by a lot!

            have you seen delon and fvv quarterback an offence? there better than cojo. norm has been shaky recently, but he is at least equal to cojo now in that regard and he will improve. cojo just dribbles around and hands off to demar and kyle. he's not a quarterback by any stretch. he doesn't turn the ball over and he is a good defender at 2 positions. his ceiling is not that high and he's not that far from it.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post
              Saying we can trade JV for a PF later is actually pretty difficult. What PF, who? What team? Does that team need a center? It's much easier said than done. I've looked. Every capable PF out there has a center on their roster already. All except for maybe Kevin Love.. and frankly I'd be shocked if the Cavs traded him.

              2Pat may not be important to this team going forward, but should be more important than a backup center.

              I have no problems trading JV, heck I came up with an idea in the JV thread (Capela/Ariza). But we need a plan. You go after Noel this year and we most likely lose our backup PG, and we have 5 centers that we have to probably get minutes too. That seems like a bad way to design a team. And what happens if JV can't get you a PF? Look what happened with Monroe in Detroit and now Milwaukee. Bad use of an asset.
              These are all reasons NOT to do something. Others are presenting reasons that maybe we SHOULD do something. That's all. You don't have to figure it all out now; in fact, WE don't have to figure it all out at all, since most of what's being discussed as possibilities are remote. But to not do anything because you're scared it may not work out seems a little, um, cowardly for a sports franchise whose only reason for existence (other than to pad the coffers of its owners) is to win a championship.
              Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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              • I think the difference between JV and Bismack is this:

                JV makes solid defensive plays and will usually defend his own man well enough, but doesn't really cover up for the mistakes of others. He's a good team defender if other guys do their jobs.

                Bismack covered up mistakes, let other guys get away with lazy or bad defense.

                So the problem was never JV, and it wasn't a problem that Bismack should've had to fix. Which means the fix shouldn't necessarily be JV's issue either.
                twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                • lewro wrote: View Post
                  we have two rookie centers and one fat broken tweener. that's gonna beat lebron? how much do you think we will spend at pg next season 35-40m? center maybe 35-40m (with noel)? being in the luxury is just the ante to contend at this point. plus we can trade noel for more value resigned than what cory is worth - by a lot!

                  have you seen delon and fvv quarterback an offence? there better than cojo. norm has been shaky recently, but he is at least equal to cojo now in that regard and he will improve. cojo just dribbles around and hands off to demar and kyle. he's not a quarterback by any stretch. he doesn't turn the ball over and he is a good defender at 2 positions. his ceiling is not that high and he's not that far from it.
                  We're not beating Lebron with or without Noel.. That's ridiculous.

                  Sully was brought in for a reason.. he's going to get minutes. I was never a fan of the signing but it is what it is.. He's here, and will play because Masai and Casey are good human beings and will want to give that kid a chance. How do you know that Noel will get more back in a trade than CoJo? This is a guard's league. CoJo is a perimeter defender, that can guard the best PG's in the game (well not so much this year, but has a reputation for it). For Noel you would need to have room for a center. If it was easy to trade, Philly would have moved him in the summer right around the time they drafted Simmons and knew Embiid would be playing this year. Plus Noel is an injury liability. He needs to prove that he can stay healthy.

                  I have seen both Delon and Van Vleet. FVV is a 15th man that will never get time. Delon needs about a month with the big league and see what he can do.. if he's capable than you pull the trigger.. but that won't happen until the deadline.

                  That's my stance on it anyway.

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                  • I'll say it again though. If you want to get by Cleveland your defense can't just be "good" it has to be elite. LeBron has only lost to a non top 5 defense once in his career and he didn't show up to that series at all (Dallas in 2011 ranked 8th). Every other team that's knocked him out has been in the top 5, and often ranked #1 overall.

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                    • jimmie wrote: View Post
                      These are all reasons NOT to do something. Others are presenting reasons that maybe we SHOULD do something. That's all. You don't have to figure it all out now; in fact, WE don't have to figure it all out at all, since most of what's being discussed as possibilities are remote. But to not do anything because you're scared it may not work out seems a little, um, cowardly for a sports franchise whose only reason for existence (other than to pad the coffers of its owners) is to win a championship.
                      I'm not afraid to make a move.. but trading your backup PG for a 5th center on the roster is not a good way to build a team. If you can trade Bebe and/or Poeltl and I can see with my own eyes that Wright is a capable backup PG, then I'd make the move for Noel. But that's still a long ways away.

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                      • Barolt wrote: View Post
                        I think the difference between JV and Bismack is this:

                        JV makes solid defensive plays and will usually defend his own man well enough, but doesn't really cover up for the mistakes of others. He's a good team defender if other guys do their jobs.

                        Bismack covered up mistakes, let other guys get away with lazy or bad defense.

                        So the problem was never JV, and it wasn't a problem that Bismack should've had to fix. Which means the fix shouldn't necessarily be JV's issue either.
                        Point guards only keep their man in front on something like 40% of drives. Guys are going to get beaten off the dribble it's just the reality of the NBA. It'd be nice if we had 3 Kawhi Leonards but we don't.

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                        • Barolt wrote: View Post
                          I think the difference between JV and Bismack is this:

                          JV makes solid defensive plays and will usually defend his own man well enough, but doesn't really cover up for the mistakes of others. He's a good team defender if other guys do their jobs.

                          Bismack covered up mistakes, let other guys get away with lazy or bad defense.

                          So the problem was never JV, and it wasn't a problem that Bismack should've had to fix. Which means the fix shouldn't necessarily be JV's issue either.
                          Sure. Then the answer is trade Demar. Seriously.

                          You need to be at least somewhat realistic, so people keeping JV on the table as a trade chip are assuming Masai would never trade Demar. But if that were a possibility, I'd have no problem keeping JV and changing our offensive system to revolve around him. That's how you 'maxmize' JV on O (but you'd still want to bring in a solid rim-defending 4 in that case). It's not possible to both maximize JV AND continue playing the same style this team seems to currently be intent on playing.
                          Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                          • lewro wrote: View Post


                            We don't need this?
                            I can't deny it, he would definitely look good on this team('s bench).



                            I do love how it's basically assumed that BC would accept CoJo for Noel (and a superfluous pick or two).

                            It's basically a Noel or bust thread now.
                            Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                            • lewro wrote: View Post
                              we have two rookie centers and one fat broken tweener. that's gonna beat lebron? how much do you think we will spend at pg next season 35-40m? center maybe 35-40m (with noel)? being in the luxury is just the ante to contend at this point. plus we can trade noel for more value resigned than what cory is worth - by a lot!

                              have you seen delon and fvv quarterback an offence? there better than cojo. norm has been shaky recently, but he is at least equal to cojo now in that regard and he will improve. cojo just dribbles around and hands off to demar and kyle. he's not a quarterback by any stretch. he doesn't turn the ball over and he is a good defender at 2 positions. his ceiling is not that high and he's not that far from it.
                              We've got some people here saying replacing Biyombo will help beat the Cavs and some people want the same thing but saying of course it won't help beat the Cavs, it'll just make the Raptors better.

                              I'm wondering if you legitimately see in-season trades that can be made this year that will put the Raptors ahead of the Cavs in terms of favourites to win ECF?

                              And if not, how many pieces are expendable to make a move in that direction without getting all the way there? Because imho the trade assets are limited and if you move some for a marginable/questionable upgrade like Noel, you're running into Colangelo territory where you've moved assets to win now, haven't gotten good enough, and have painted yourself into a corner shooting for short-term fixes and running out of a long-term path to improvement.

                              I see a big assumption here that a primary goal is to get better than the Cavs right now. I'm not sure that objective is very high on Masai's priority list for this season, tbh. I see a lot of sustainability in the way he's building this roster, I don't see a guy who's going to dump pieces for a quick fix with debatable results, I see a GM who's likely planning for this team to peak at some point 1-3 seasons down the road.
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                              • Have the last two teams to beat Lebron done it with a shotblocker? What a bullshit argument.

                                They've had elite perimeter defenders who could guard him with minimal help for stretches. If your big has to always come over and help to beat Lebron, you're not beating him. Even Dallas heavily used a zone so they wouldnt leave other guys too open when they helped. LeBron is an elite playmaker and the second holes open up because of defenders helping you're fucked more often than not.

                                Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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