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Who has been the 3rd best Raptor?

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  • #91
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Pats value is dropping by the day. He's the biggest wildcard guess..could be anywhere from as low as 10 to as high as 20+ per year.
    If Pat and Tucker can be had for a combined 20M that would be amazing. I'd happily lock both up for 5 years at that number even with the risk of drop off in their play long term. I imagine the combined expected cost is more like 25-30 though, so you start to have to make decisions.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #92
      lewro wrote: View Post
      Yes, there are a lot of factors. It's not just that PJ can play 3/4 but also switch 1-4. There's value in Pat's shooting but maybe 5%? But pjs slightly better in Rebs so small ball Ibaka has shooting at the 5 and PJ helps slightly on the boards. The loss of Ross and Powell's regression gives weight to the need for 3s tho. That's already convoluted and barely scratches the surface without even touching on DMC or your golden boy ��
      You still want bebe ahead of yak and sit both anyway? How bout norm to the 905?
      Huh? Well with Ross gone and Lowry hurt and the bench needing offence, obviously Powell should be playing more, even with Tucker here who has played a good number of PF minutes. When Carroll and Ross were both playing and fitting well with their lineups (ie when DD and Lowry were healthy) there was no need to crowd the rotation. Powell playing more after Ross was traded was always the plan.

      I want neither BeBe nor Poeltl to play when JV, Ibaka and Pat are healthy and the game is in doubt, especially once we hit the playoffs. I definitely haven't changed that stance. If Pat doesn't come back next year, you'd need more PF minutes from Ibaka and therefore Poeltl would play more as the primary backup C. One of BeBe or Poeltl probably gets dropped over the summer, ideally you keep Poeltl even if BeBe is probably the better player for the role this season when Lowry is healthy to play with the bench unit. Without Lowry it's all about finding a fit, and BeBe has been useless without Lowry and Pat, thankfully Poeltl has some chemistry with Wright and that's helped the moribund bench offence a bit.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • #93
        PJ and Ibaka making some of you realize just how overrated 2pat was on here. He is a good first big off the bench but, was never starter material. Don't care what on/off stats you give me. He is way too damn inconsistent. With a starter you know what you going to get from him every game.

        Ibaka for example is a starter. You know at the end of games your going to get at least 12 and 5.

        You never know what your going to get from 2pat. 2pat benefited from being the only foward with that skillset. Please Masai don't pay this guy anymore than Ross. He wants more let him walk.

        Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
        Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Mon Mar 20th, 2017, 05:23 PM.
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • #94
          Ibaka or Tucker have usurped Powell.

          Ibaka shows he can consistently get us some points and defence. Norm seems to either bring one or the other. He has to be consistent every night in what he brings and that's been his issue.

          I'm actually blown away by Tucker because I think playing PHX has made him one of the best kept secrets in the league. The guy is an excellent defender, imo right up there with the Tony Allens and Avery Bradleys. His value to this team can't be understated, he is truly like our new "Oakley". He holds our star players accountable (since the coach fails to do so) as Oak did with VC and TMac and he goes out and does all the dirty work. There is absolutely no way I let him get away and love Pat but if the choice is between PJ and Pat...it's not even close; it's 100% Tucker.

          I really think if we can get ATL to somehow agree to a S&T for Millsap and retain KL, Serge and PJ that we would finally legitimately be like the 04 Pistons that our fanbase has long thought is the mold that our franchise will need to follow.

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          • #95
            Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
            PJ and Ibaka making some of you realize just how overrated 2pat was on here. He is a good first big off the bench but, was never starter material. Don't care what on/off stats you give me. He is way too damn inconsistent. With a starter you know what you going to get from him every game.

            Ibaka for example is a starter. You know at the end of games your going to get at least 12 and 5.

            You never know what your going to get from 2pat. 2pat benefited from being the only foward with that skillset. Please Masai don't pay this guy anymore than Ross. He wants more let him walk.

            Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
            I wouldn't waste the money (no offense to PP) because that money needs to be used to keep PJ.

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            • #96
              DanH wrote: View Post
              Huh? Well with Ross gone and Lowry hurt and the bench needing offence, obviously Powell should be playing more, even with Tucker here who has played a good number of PF minutes. When Carroll and Ross were both playing and fitting well with their lineups (ie when DD and Lowry were healthy) there was no need to crowd the rotation. Powell playing more after Ross was traded was always the plan.

              I want neither BeBe nor Poeltl to play when JV, Ibaka and Pat are healthy and the game is in doubt, especially once we hit the playoffs. I definitely haven't changed that stance. If Pat doesn't come back next year, you'd need more PF minutes from Ibaka and therefore Poeltl would play more as the primary backup C. One of BeBe or Poeltl probably gets dropped over the summer, ideally you keep Poeltl even if BeBe is probably the better player for the role this season when Lowry is healthy to play with the bench unit. Without Lowry it's all about finding a fit, and BeBe has been useless without Lowry and Pat, thankfully Poeltl has some chemistry with Wright and that's helped the moribund bench offence a bit.
              Norm started getting mins before the Ross trade and it was deserved. Both Ross and DMC shit the bed at various points, even if the lineup stats say otherwise. Part of development is playing through the growing pains bc you can project beyond the stats toward a possibly greater upside, versatility, etc.
              Bebe hit a wall before the Lowry injury and Lowry has nothing to do with the offensive fouls, poor perimeter d, lack of rebounding, etc. the Lowry/bebe PNR does have some intrigue for me tho.
              Hopefully yak doesn't have to play in the playoffs but for right now he definitely should be. You argued against that (just like you wanted to send norm to 905, lol). That's the "huh?". There aren't stats for something that hasn't happened, you have to use human intuition based on the eye test of the minutae not recorded by stats. That's why Watson is a tool and not the gm.

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              • #97
                Yeah. BeBe struggled without Pat, which is no surprise. Biz received the same Pat bench boost last year. But without Lowry it definitely makes zero sense playing BeBe even with Pat back. With Pat and Lowry there, BeBe is still the better fit with the bench unit. Without them, he's too niche, and his mistakes (which were there all along) and weak rebounding (also there all along) aren't masked by the overall lineup synergy.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • #98
                  Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                  PJ and Ibaka making some of you realize just how overrated 2pat was on here. He is a good first big off the bench but, was never starter material. Don't care what on/off stats you give me. He is way too damn inconsistent. With a starter you know what you going to get from him every game.

                  Ibaka for example is a starter. You know at the end of games your going to get at least 12 and 5.

                  You never know what your going to get from 2pat. 2pat benefited from being the only foward with that skillset. Please Masai don't pay this guy anymore than Ross. He wants more let him walk.

                  Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                  You still don't think he was starting quality over LUIS FUCKING SCOLA who just got released from the Nets??? Or how about Siakam (all due respect) who's currently playing in the D-League? Before the Ibaka and Tucker trades Patterson was the 2nd best big man (could argue overall best) on the team dating all the way back to 2014.

                  Was that bad? Yeah kind of, which is why there was so much pressure on Masai to upgrade the PF spot. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been starting games.

                  lewro wrote: View Post
                  Norm started getting mins before the Ross trade and it was deserved. Both Ross and DMC shit the bed at various points, even if the lineup stats say otherwise. Part of development is playing through the growing pains bc you can project beyond the stats toward a possibly greater upside, versatility, etc.
                  Bebe hit a wall before the Lowry injury and Lowry has nothing to do with the offensive fouls, poor perimeter d, lack of rebounding, etc. the Lowry/bebe PNR does have some intrigue for me tho.
                  Hopefully yak doesn't have to play in the playoffs but for right now he definitely should be. You argued against that (just like you wanted to send norm to 905, lol). That's the "huh?". There aren't stats for something that hasn't happened, you have to use human intuition based on the eye test of the minutae not recorded by stats. That's why Watson is a tool and not the gm.
                  Bebe is done. The "wall" he hit was just other well built centers being more physical with him.
                  Last edited by tDotted; Mon Mar 20th, 2017, 11:16 PM.

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                  • #99
                    DanH wrote: View Post
                    Yeah. BeBe struggled without Pat, which is no surprise. Biz received the same Pat bench boost last year. But without Lowry it definitely makes zero sense playing BeBe even with Pat back. With Pat and Lowry there, BeBe is still the better fit with the bench unit. Without them, he's too niche, and his mistakes (which were there all along) and weak rebounding (also there all along) aren't masked by the overall lineup synergy.
                    The reason not to play bebe is bc he's been developed for yrs in ACB and NBA and he has 1 yr left on his contract. At 24, he can't add weight to his frame to rebound and defend the post.
                    We spent a top 10 pick on yak. We have him for 3 yrs and his development has just begun. Yaks frame can add weight and he's got way more two way potential.
                    Bebe is a grown man and a professional now. Take the Pat and Lowry training wheels off. Of course, it's their fault that bebe passes when he's wide open for a dunk under the net. Never seen that play once in my life and he's done it twice inside of 1000 mins/half a season. It's all Pat's fault! Lol.
                    I was wrong about 905 FB like 2 mins ago. Part of being human.

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                    • In regards to Bebe, I get the sense reading between the lines there is a mental element/conditioning that is at play here too.

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                      • Who has been the 3rd best Raptor?

                        Bebe's soft and that all it is. He can't grab a board, he gets bodied by every other player on the floor, and he won't take a shot. Yak isn't soft, he just isn't quite strong enough yet. IMO for the rest of the regular season Yak should be playing because if not, we know Serge will play at least 35 minutes a game which is just too much for him. Maybe in the playoffs you can cut Yak out, but not yet, and maybe not even in the first round depending on the matchup.


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                        • It's pretty clear that DeMar DeRozan is the third best Raptor, and that's the problem with the team, on a great team, he would be a borderline starter / 6th man.

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                          • Quirk wrote: View Post
                            It's pretty clear that DeMar DeRozan is the third best Raptor, and that's the problem with the team, on a great team, he would be a borderline starter / 6th man.
                            You forgot the sarcasm smiley ....

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                            • danno wrote: View Post
                              You forgot the sarcasm smiley ....
                              No sarcasm, I really do think he is good enough to be a borderline starter / 6th man on a great team!

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                              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                                No sarcasm, I really do think he is good enough to be a borderline starter / 6th man on a great team!
                                And I believe opposing players and coaches have a much higher regard for him. Of course I cannot prove that.

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