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  • KeonClark wrote: View Post
    K a lot of you guys are blowing this jv bebe thing way out of proportion. I'm just glad that bebe is showing us to be a capable 2nd center after losing Bismack which everybody was oh so worried about. Let us not forget jv just came off a knee contusion and it was back to back games with quite a bit of travel.

    Talk of trading jv is ridiculously premature, as much as I love bebe he's shown no signs of handling a much bigger workload long term. For now just be content with the realization that we may have another good player, and enjoy this demar dejordan run and 7-2 record
    I look at it as we have developed an asset and we are finding our team identity.
    That's a good thing. We still have a big hole at pf. Somebody's gotta get traded bc we are capped. Bebe has gone from throw in to intriguing prospect - send him to magic for Gordon!
    Jv is more expendable. That gives us options.
    We gotta give something to get something. Everybody likes a certain player. My guy is norm but id trade him if it was best for the team.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Rather than panicking a little bit, I'm going to irrationally give Casey the benefit of the doubt and say he's leaning on Nogueira more to ease JV back into minutes after his injury, and it being a back to back. Also, we had another defensive issue that having Nogueira on the floor specifically helped with - not having anyone who could guard Melo. Thankfully the Knicks left Noah out there - it let us use BeBe as a free safety, doubling whenever Melo or Porzingis went into the post. I like to imagine that with Carroll in there, JV would be there too, because there was a long stretch there in the 4th where we couldn't score and I was screaming for JV to come back in. Lowry and DD started breaking guys down in one on one play (because LOL Knicks defence) so it worked out, anyway.

      Both bigs played really well in this one. Huge key to the victory. Siakam was solid enough offensively for a change, but spaced out way too much defensively - got back cut several times and lost on rotations and switches way too easily. Patterson was great, as per usual. CoJo couldn't buy a bucket or a call, but fought hard and did okay running the offence. Fairly forgettable night for him. Ross too, though he hit a coupe nice shots and had that transition and-one.

      DeMar. What to say? Tremendous once again.

      Good win - back to back with a travel night? I'll take it, no matter the opponent. Throw in the bad matchup with our one real Melo defender not playing and I'll definitely take it.

      Nice little break now to rest up guys with bumps and bruises.
      Yeah, I can't give Casey the benefit of the doubt. They got the win, but he has an extensive history of doing this. Bebe can better handle the sheer number of straight-line-drives and blowbys that the guards are giving up so long as he has time to use his length, but he gets bodied far too easily. On one hand, Casey won't be able to say they're going small down the stretch since Bebe is so tall, but the guards are more likely to throw him lobs as a bail out option than involve JV as a rollman.

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      • Sinbad wrote: View Post
        Yeah, I can't give Casey the benefit of the doubt. They got the win, but he has an extensive history of doing this. Bebe can better handle the sheer number of straight-line-drives and blowbys that the guards are giving up so long as he has time to use his length, but he gets bodied far too easily. On one hand, Casey won't be able to say they're going small down the stretch since Bebe is so tall, but the guards are more likely to throw him lobs as a bail out option than involve JV as a rollman.
        Rose was driving through our defense with ease. Anyone else starting to get concerned about Lowry's defense.

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        • slamdunk23 wrote: View Post
          Rose was driving through our defense with ease. Anyone else starting to get concerned about Lowry's defense.
          Is it just me or does he look fat again

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          • JV came out at the 4:25 mark of the 3rd quarter. The possession before Bebe got up from the bench, Noah had grabbed an offensive rebound over JV. When JV came off the court, he had a discussion with Casey at the scorer's table.

            I really do think that Casey is sitting him intentionally with the caveat that if Bebe hadn't played so well, we might have seen JV again (it's also possible that Poeltl would have came in).

            Casey is definitely employing a different standard for JV than any other player and I think it's simply because JV isn't the type of C that Casey wants.

            All this talk of trading JV is way premature. Bebe has been hurt more than any other player on the roster over the last few years. He has played well in short stints before but then got hurt and didn't make it back into the rotation. He's a great talent to have but he hasn't proven that he can be dependable for 82 games + playoffs. Ideal backup option but not a starter.

            Poeltl has proven even less and shouldn't be much of a consideration for a team that's trying to win now. Let him develop but don't move better players for a youngster to play more.

            That said, if this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised if JV asked for a trade. It's clear that despite what Masai may say, JV isn't a priority for Casey and he absolutely should be frustrated; he works his butt off, gets ignored and marginalized and then less experienced players keep "earning" the coaches trust over him. This may be the storyline of the season.

            Glad Carroll sat, Powell looked better than Carroll in pretty much every aspect. Carroll's minutes should be down to a 50/50 split with Powell. Carroll is still a good player but he's coasting out there too much and the extra rest should make him more effective.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • Why are people upset about Bebe getting more minutes than JV? He was playing better than him.

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              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                Why are people upset about Bebe getting more minutes than JV? He was playing better than him.
                I don't think that is even necessarily true, they provide different things but the issue is that this is back to back games where Bebe checked in late in the 3rd quarter and then never came out. JV is our best center yet has seen zero minutes in the last two 4th quarters.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  I don't think that is even necessarily true, they provide different things but the issue is that this is back to back games where Bebe checked in late in the 3rd quarter and then never came out. JV is our best center yet has seen zero minutes in the last two 4th quarters.
                  It is true, especially in the context of the game that was being played. He was much better defensively which is what we needed particularly in both of those 4th quarters. And we weren't losing much on offense as it's not like we would be feeding it to JV in the post on repeat. Bebe has also been great in pick and roll situations so far, scoring 1.50 PPP on 85.7% shooting as the roll man (36.7% of his offense).

                  JV is our best center yes, but Bebe was the better choice given the situation and circumstance.

                  Comment


                  • Axel wrote: View Post
                    I don't think that is even necessarily true, they provide different things but the issue is that this is back to back games where Bebe checked in late in the 3rd quarter and then never came out. JV is our best center yet has seen zero minutes in the last two 4th quarters.
                    Like Bismack, it's obvious that Bebe is a much better fit with Lowry specifically than JV. Bebe & Bismack do 5 things much better than JV: (1) protect the rim against PGs, (2) hedge guards on the perimeter, (3) catch bad lob passes, above the rim, (4) run the floor, (5) provide energy.

                    All of those things make life easier for Lowry, also allowing him to conserve more energy for offense. JV makes Lowry have to work harder, especially on defense. And Lowry doesn't need to think about getting JV involved or how to feed him in the post, or hitting him on the roll (which Lowry is bad at). JV also can't finish above the rim, as well as he could in his rookie season, so that's another strike.

                    The Raps system is designed to maximize Lowry and DD, with all of the other players having complementary skills, even if they can do more. It's pretty obvious when you consider that Masai would reach to draft a guy like Siakam, who also does those 5 things mentioned above, better than JV.

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                    • Lupe wrote: View Post
                      It is true, especially in the context of the game that was being played. He was much better defensively which is what we needed particularly in both of those 4th quarters. And we weren't losing much on offense as it's not like we would be feeding it to JV in the post on repeat. Bebe has also been great in pick and roll situations so far, scoring 1.50 PPP on 85.7% shooting as the roll man (36.7% of his offense).

                      JV is our best center yes, but Bebe was the better choice given the situation and circumstance.
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      Like Bismack, it's obvious that Bebe is a much better fit with Lowry specifically than JV. Bebe & Bismack do 5 things much better than JV: (1) protect the rim against PGs, (2) hedge guards on the perimeter, (3) catch bad lob passes, above the rim, (4) run the floor, (5) provide energy.

                      All of those things make life easier for Lowry, also allowing him to conserve more energy for offense. JV makes Lowry have to work harder, especially on defense. And Lowry doesn't need to think about getting JV involved or how to feed him in the post, or hitting him on the roll (which Lowry is bad at). JV also can't finish above the rim, as well as he could in his rookie season, so that's another strike.

                      The Raps system is designed to maximize Lowry and DD, with all of the other players having complementary skills, even if they can do more. It's pretty obvious when you consider that Masai would reach to draft a guy like Siakam, who also does those 5 things mentioned above, better than JV.
                      Bebe certainly has played well and I am not trying to knock him in any way. But in rotation management, playing a guy in that stretch for back to back nights is a poor choice. Even if it was JV I would be calling for a sub at some point in that stretch.

                      Bebe seems to get more looks off lobs than JV gets in total. The guards make a point to look for Bebe because the defence largely ignores him. The guards don't make much effort to get JV the ball, even when he's wide open. That is a fundamental flaw in the way the team plays.

                      Our system is designed to maximize Lowry and Demar, but it is still a team sport and we should be trying to expand our system to be better. By ignoring the interior play in general, and JV specifically, we are solely relying on DD and Lowry to improve offensively for our offence to be better than last year. Demar is playing lights out, historically good (which was needed after his poor playoffs) but it likely isn't going to be sustained at this level. If our team is trying to improve at the offensive end at all, it needs to come from using interior play.

                      Defensively, I'm very sad to see the return of hedging on the perimeter this year. ICE worked well for us last year, better than hedging ever has; and is a stronger system to employ in general. It seems like it's only a matter of time before we start hearing Casey talking about the scramble defence again, which would be a big step back for this team.

                      I get that people are excited to see Bebe produce, and there are going to be times when he does play better than JV. Some of those times will be matchup dependent and some just the hot hand. But Casey still needs to manage the rotation and find a way to build off of last year. If the plan is to simply hope Demar keeps playing at a MVP level, then we are likely going to fall short of last year.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Bebe certainly has played well and I am not trying to knock him in any way. But in rotation management, playing a guy in that stretch for back to back nights is a poor choice. Even if it was JV I would be calling for a sub at some point in that stretch.

                        Bebe seems to get more looks off lobs than JV gets in total. The guards make a point to look for Bebe because the defence largely ignores him. The guards don't make much effort to get JV the ball, even when he's wide open. That is a fundamental flaw in the way the team plays.

                        Our system is designed to maximize Lowry and Demar, but it is still a team sport and we should be trying to expand our system to be better. By ignoring the interior play in general, and JV specifically, we are solely relying on DD and Lowry to improve offensively for our offence to be better than last year. Demar is playing lights out, historically good (which was needed after his poor playoffs) but it likely isn't going to be sustained at this level. If our team is trying to improve at the offensive end at all, it needs to come from using interior play.

                        Defensively, I'm very sad to see the return of hedging on the perimeter this year. ICE worked well for us last year, better than hedging ever has; and is a stronger system to employ in general. It seems like it's only a matter of time before we start hearing Casey talking about the scramble defence again, which would be a big step back for this team.

                        I get that people are excited to see Bebe produce, and there are going to be times when he does play better than JV. Some of those times will be matchup dependent and some just the hot hand. But Casey still needs to manage the rotation and find a way to build off of last year. If the plan is to simply hope Demar keeps playing at a MVP level, then we are likely going to fall short of last year.
                        That really is the nub. Is "maximizing Lowry & DD" at the expense of wasting strengths & capabilities of others going to get us to the next level? A topic that probably deserves it's own thread. I'm just trying to explain to people who don't understand why Bebe is out there in winning time, over our starting center. It's mostly because of Lowry.

                        Comment


                        • How was DeMar's historically good play "needed" after his playoff performance? So if he wasn't playing like Jordan that wouldn't be good enough?

                          And I don't really agree with this idea that Casey doesn't know what he's doing. He IS a very good coach, you don't get to the ECF with both of your top 2 guys playing terribly through bad coaching. It's possible JV isn't fitting into the way he wants to close games right now, doesn't mean anything's wrong with JV or that Bebe is better, just that he's playing better and fits the plan better these past two games. It's possible that, yeah, he could get moved for a star at power forward. And tbh it could make some sense (although I'd like to bring in a better version of Bebe first, like Noel as rumored). People have said themselves we're not running a post-oriented offense so it might make sense to move JV, get significantly better at PF and play an athletic, mobile, rim-running center instead who can fit the 2011 Tyson Chandler role that Casey seems to want.

                          Masai and Casey have a very good working relationship so he'll work with Casey to build the kind of team he thinks he can win with.

                          FWIW haven't Raps fans for years wanted to replace DeRozan with a 3+D shooting guard, not because they're necessarily better than him because they thought he might fit better? How is this any different?

                          For the record I think we can win with JV, definitely. But I don't think we can win with our power forward situation right now (not the title anyway) and it might make sense to use JV to rectify that situation since we're not playing in a way that maximizes JV's post skill set anyway and as a result wouldn't be losing much. Athletic, mobile bigs can clean up the offensive glass and finish on the pick and roll too, while being much better contributors defensively especially with someone like Lowry like golden mentioned.
                          Last edited by Lupe; Sun Nov 13, 2016, 09:42 AM.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post
                            That really is the nub. Is "maximizing Lowry & DD" at the expense of wasting strengths & capabilities of others going to get us to the next level? A topic that probably deserves it's own thread. I'm just trying to explain to people who don't understand why Bebe is out there in winning time, over our starting center. It's mostly because of Lowry.
                            It's certainly too big a topic to discuss in a game thread, agreed.

                            But in last nights context (or even the night before), Bebe can be used to close but still shouldn't be playing the last 5 mins of the 3rd and the entire 4th without break. No center should, it's a position with lots of physical wear and tear and Bebe is a guy who hasn't been able to stay healthy in any stretch. He's clearly a valuable player to have, so why risk that for early November wins?
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              It's certainly too big a topic to discuss in a game thread, agreed.

                              But in last nights context (or even the night before), Bebe can be used to close but still shouldn't be playing the last 5 mins of the 3rd and the entire 4th without break. No center should, it's a position with lots of physical wear and tear and Bebe is a guy who hasn't been able to stay healthy in any stretch. He's clearly a valuable player to have, so why risk that for early November wins?
                              He's 24 though, if he's not going to be able to play big minutes now, then when will he? I mean I'm sure Casey was checking in on him to see how he was doing stamina wise and he didn't look tired out there he was playing with relentless energy.

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                              • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                                Funny, my thoughts on watching Bebe the past few games have nothing to do with trading JV -I just think it's looking more and more like letting Biz walk isn't the huge negative some thought, maybe not a negative whatsoever.
                                Exactly. Bebe is the new BB.

                                The JV trade chatter in here tho, lmao.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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