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  • Last year, Lowry and the bench had a 111.1 ORtg. The best offensive unit of our top 5 most played lineups. They also had a 57% assist rate.

    The only player from that lineup who's gone is Bismack. Unless you want to convince me he was the catalyst for the ball movement in that lineup, the personnel to succeed while passing the ball still exists on this team.
    twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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    • Barolt wrote: View Post
      Last year, Lowry and the bench had a 111.1 ORtg. The best offensive unit of our top 5 most played lineups. They also had a 57% assist rate.

      The only player from that lineup who's gone is Bismack. Unless you want to convince me he was the catalyst for the ball movement in that lineup, the personnel to succeed while passing the ball still exists on this team.
      Among lineups with at least 100 minutes played (there were 9 such lineups last year), there were 3 lineups well above 50% AST%, 3 well below, and 3 right at 50%. The best offensive lineup was Lowry, DeRozan, Joseph, PP and Biyombo. They had an assist rate of 38% and an ORTG of 116. The second best offensive lineup is the one you listed (111 ORTG, 57 AST%). 3rd best was DeMar + bench (105 ORTG, 45 AST%). 4th best was the Ross and Biyombo starting lineup (104 ORTG, 50 AST%). 5th best was the opening night starters (104 ORTG, 57 AST%).

      What does that tell us? All those lineups were playing the same way, using the same system. Some just had a higher assist rate, possibly by luck, possibly by player type. But the ones that didn't were just as effective (arguably more so) scoring the ball as those that did.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Among lineups with at least 100 minutes played (there were 9 such lineups last year), there were 3 lineups well above 50% AST%, 3 well below, and 3 right at 50%. The best offensive lineup was Lowry, DeRozan, Joseph, PP and Biyombo. They had an assist rate of 38% and an ORTG of 116. The second best offensive lineup is the one you listed (111 ORTG, 57 AST%). 3rd best was DeMar + bench (105 ORTG, 45 AST%). 4th best was the Ross and Biyombo starting lineup (104 ORTG, 50 AST%). 5th best was the opening night starters (104 ORTG, 57 AST%).

        What does that tell us? All those lineups were playing the same way, using the same system. Some just had a higher assist rate, possibly by luck, possibly by player type. But the ones that didn't were just as effective (arguably more so) scoring the ball as those that did.
        I don't think that what you stated proves this at all. It proves that you could get similar assist rates with different lineups, or lesser assist rates with similar lineups, but makes no statement whatsoever on how each lineup got their buckets.
        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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        • Barolt wrote: View Post
          I don't think that what you stated proves this at all. It proves that you could get similar assist rates with different lineups, or lesser assist rates with similar lineups, but makes no statement whatsoever on how each lineup got their buckets.
          How they scored is irrelevant. They were playing the same system. And just because one lineup had that system lead to more assists, doesn't mean that they were playing differently.

          Can you give me any reason to believe that some lineups were told to play by a different system to generate more assist opportunities? In all likelihood, this lineup to lineup comparison is mostly noise (supported by the generally bell-curve shaped distribution of AST% among the top played lineups).
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • Barolt wrote: View Post
            You might be a fan of DeMar, I'm a fan of the Raptors.
            I can't believe people are still acting like you have to be one or the other. Makes no sense. You honestly don't think Christian is a fan of the Raptors too? C'mon man.

            It's no secret I'm a huge Demar fan. Love the guy... So that automatically means I'm NOT a fan of the Raptors? Just because I'm happy to see him succeed, and get a bit of recognition for his great play?

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            • KHD wrote: View Post
              justin trudeau is "hair" canada, get with the program already.
              Lol my bad

              Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                Air Canada was a great name! As was vincanity and half man half amazing. Dont you go ruining my teenaged nostalgia, WMCJ!
                I got no problem with vinsanity, and half man half amazing is silly enough to work. Air canada always sucked though...

                Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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                • Joey wrote: View Post
                  I can't believe people are still acting like you have to be one or the other. Makes no sense. You honestly don't think Christian is a fan of the Raptors too? C'mon man.

                  It's no secret I'm a huge Demar fan. Love the guy... So that automatically means I'm NOT a fan of the Raptors? Just because I'm happy to see him succeed, and get a bit of recognition for his great play?
                  No, you can totally be a fan of both. That's not what I'm saying at all, and you're taking that line out of the context that the next line in my post gave.

                  If you're a fan of both, and DeMar's play is to the detriment of the Raptors(like the Indiana series), can you criticize DeMar while still being a fan of the team though?

                  I think sometimes we take the approach that 'being a fan of the team' means you can't be critical of the team as well.
                  twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    How they scored is irrelevant. They were playing the same system. And just because one lineup had that system lead to more assists, doesn't mean that they were playing differently.

                    Can you give me any reason to believe that some lineups were told to play by a different system to generate more assist opportunities? In all likelihood, this lineup to lineup comparison is mostly noise (supported by the generally bell-curve shaped distribution of AST% among the top played lineups).
                    The eye test for me, I saw more ball movement and protracted effort to create through that with the bench lineups on the floor last year. I don't really have a statistical basis for it, being honest. I'd imagine if you looked through last year's game threads though, most of the comments about 'impressive ball movement' were posted during times the bench lineups were on the floor.

                    Although, maybe this is more simple than that. This year, with the starters and Siakam at PF, our assist rate is 34.3%, with an AST/TO ratio of .8. With our starters and Patterson at PF, our assist rate is 55.6% and AST/TO ratio of 2.14.
                    twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                    • Joey wrote: View Post
                      I can't believe people are still acting like you have to be one or the other. Makes no sense. You honestly don't think Christian is a fan of the Raptors too? C'mon man.

                      It's no secret I'm a huge Demar fan. Love the guy... So that automatically means I'm NOT a fan of the Raptors? Just because I'm happy to see him succeed, and get a bit of recognition for his great play?
                      I think what Barolt is getting at is that if an individual player's habits or actions are detrimental to the team, its okay to call that player out for it.

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                      • Barolt wrote: View Post
                        The eye test for me, I saw more ball movement and protracted effort to create through that with the bench lineups on the floor last year. I don't really have a statistical basis for it, being honest. I'd imagine if you looked through last year's game threads though, most of the comments about 'impressive ball movement' were posted during times the bench lineups were on the floor.

                        Although, maybe this is more simple than that. This year, with the starters and Siakam at PF, our assist rate is 34.3%, with an AST/TO ratio of .8. With our starters and Patterson at PF, our assist rate is 55.6% and AST/TO ratio of 2.14.
                        That last point I won't argue with. Put more shooters on the floor and you will probably get more assists. Fewer shooters and you have to score more by creating after passes or getting to the line.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • Barolt wrote: View Post
                          I think sometimes we take the approach that 'being a fan of the team' means you can't be critical of the team as well.
                          There are fans who only focus on what DeMar does right.
                          There are fans who enjoy what DeMar does right, but accept and criticize his flaws.
                          And there are fans who only focus on DeMar's flaws.

                          It's not that you can't be critical of the team or its players. It's simply that if you never acknowledge what a player does right, you're really no different than someone who refuses to see what a player does wrong. Homers and haters are just two sides of the same coin.

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                          • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            There are fans who only focus on what DeMar does right.
                            There are fans who enjoy what DeMar does right, but accept and criticize his flaws.
                            And there are fans who only focus on DeMar's flaws.

                            It's not that you can't be critical of the team or its players. It's simply that if you never acknowledge what a player does right, you're really no different than someone who refuses to see what a player does wrong. Homers and haters are just two sides of the same coin.
                            I've acknowledged plenty of things DeMar does right, actually, if this is a shot at me. I've enjoyed the hell out of these last three games from him.(which doesn't necessarily keep me from wondering about it's sustainability)

                            He's been great to start the season!
                            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                            • DanH wrote: View Post
                              That last point I won't argue with. Put more shooters on the floor and you will probably get more assists. Fewer shooters and you have to score more by creating after passes or getting to the line.
                              It's interesting though that the Pat version of the lineup, which is generating more assists also is turning it over less.
                              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                              • Jokic was a steal for Denver in the 2nd round, too bad the Raptors drafted DeAndre Daniels 4 picks earlier...

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