Everything Round 2: Toronto Raptors vs Cleveland Cavaliers

[S.R.]

Don't want to re-post the whole thing but that's a great point on the three point shooting. Just watching the Spurs Rockets and it's just a three point contest. Entire series will be decided by who makes the most in the most games. That's basically it. There is very little tactical brilliance - it is just about firepower.

Cavs just ran away from Toronto. Raps were out scored so badly from beyond the arc even playing a perfect game couldn't beat it.

Absolutely, but also the opportunity was there for Toronto. DeRozan constantly getting double-teamed - open 3's were available for Toronto the entire series, they couldn't hit them. Mind you the Raptors intentionally minimized passing and 3PA all year long, so no wonder when they needed exactly that they couldn't just turn it on like a faucet. Cleveland looked like pros picking apart the D with passes and finding open 3's - for one they put 4-5 3pt shooters on the floor all the time, but also this is their offence, they've been running this all year. For the Raptors it's a playoff adjustment they couldn't make, for the Cavs it's who they are. You could sure tell the difference in the games.

[special1]

Ditto. For all the noise out there, we lost this series because of one reason: 3-point firepower discrepancy. That's it. The Raptors on the 2 home games (specially this last one), busted their tails and did all the little things that normally gets you a W: rebounds, assists, moving the ball, taking care of turnovers, points in the paint, defensive energy etc... Cojo had one the best defensive performances Kyrie has seen, DD put up numbers, Ibaka, albeit cold at times, had stats pretty close to Love's. JV was decent. Tucker, in his first playoff appearance ever, guarding you know who, was also respectable. Powell also held his own.

But the reality is, and I said it here after game 2, the Cavs have at least seven players that are much more reliable than our best 3-point shooter from deep (LBJ, Kyrie, Love, Frye, Jr Smith, Korver and yes even Schumper). When you're faced with that kind of discrepancy, you can't make runs or sustain leads, no matter how good your other fundamentals are. A writer here at RR actually put the numbers up, confirming what I had suspected: this series had the biggest 4-game discrepancy in 3-point shooting ever in NBA history. I wish I was joking. You can't survive like this. Forget about free throws, reputation calls, respect or lack thereof, blablabla. It's the 3.

Some fans/players/commentators don't like this, saying this is oversimplifying the game, but there's no running away from it. You can't compete like this when you get in the top 8 like we did. Period. Even the Spurs, such a solid team, has trouble with the Rockets because of 3-point discrepancy. Now yes, when the 3 firepower is at least somewhat matched, yeah then everything makes a difference.

As down in the dumps as players and fans are right now, keep in mind this: we have a decent, carefully developed core, in the top 8, while also being the 3rd youngest team in the NBA. Lots of room to grow. But also keep in mind this: we have a glaring, crippling deficiency that will destroy us if not fixed: lack of 3pt shooting. What does that mean for the summer? You don't have to necessarily blow your core (it's a solid, promising one), but if you have to do it in order to get at least TWO elite shooters, do it. I'm not talking so-so ones, it's gotta be top in 3pt%, the caliber of Eric Gordon, Klay Thompson, Korver, C.J MacCollum, JJ Reddick etc...

That will be the true test for management in the off-season. If you can do that then it will show we learned something from this sweep.

Nice post.

I agree, we couldn't keep up because the Cavs seemed to be automatic from 3 and we struggled badly to hit our 3s.

Aside from the fact that they had the best player in the world on their team..... that was the difference.

I don't think it makes sense to blow it up at all and I certainly don't think MLSE or Masai will go that route.

This summer, we need to find some shooters.


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[The Great One]

Don't want to re-post the whole thing but that's a great point on the three point shooting. Just watching the Spurs Rockets and it's just a three point contest. Entire series will be decided by who makes the most in the most games. That's basically it. There is very little tactical brilliance - it is just about firepower.

It's ugly. I miss 90's basketball.

This new era is all about the 3pt shot. Every game is like a 3pt contest. Who makes the most 3's. Not a fan of it.

[LateBoomer]

none of the OP's 5 points came true, deymn.

[A.I]

It's ugly. I miss 90's basketball.

This new era is all about the 3pt shot. Every game is like a 3pt contest. Who makes the most 3's. Not a fan of it.

I agree somewhat. Not a big fan of the 3s (Except the ridiculous ones Curry makes), but I love the ball movement.

[e_wheazhy_]

It's ugly. I miss 90's basketball.

This new era is all about the 3pt shot. Every game is like a 3pt contest. Who makes the most 3's. Not a fan of it.

It is about the three point shot but we see tactical brilliance in getting guys open shots to maximize the advantage. Guys arent just sprinting to the line and shooting.

90s basketball was post ups and midrange, all ISO, ugly basketball. No beauty there unless you enjoy a good 1 on 1 battle (granted individual balances can shine through, but seems the genral sentiment on this forum is that its ineffecient and doesnt hold up unless you have an all time great talent).

[Ball]

In some alternate reality, the Raptors swept the Cavs after their role players collectively shot >50% on 3-pointers the entire series. Derozan and Lowry averaged 60 ppg on 60% shooting.

[rocwell]

4-0

[white men can't jump]

I agree somewhat. Not a big fan of the 3s (Except the ridiculous ones Curry makes), but I love the ball movement.

A lot of teams don't move the ball, have the shooters or playmakers to run an exciting small-ball system.

We do end up seeing a lot of games that degenerate into pseudo-all-star games. No D, just teams going up and down trying to get up as many 3s as possible.

It's not fun at all and they need to start looking into fixing it in some way.

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[golden]

Ditto. For all the noise out there, we lost this series because of one reason: 3-point firepower discrepancy. That's it. The Raptors on the 2 home games (specially this last one), busted their tails and did all the little things that normally gets you a W: rebounds, assists, moving the ball, taking care of turnovers, points in the paint, defensive energy etc... Cojo had one the best defensive performances Kyrie has seen, DD put up numbers, Ibaka, albeit cold at times, had stats pretty close to Love's. JV was decent. Tucker, in his first playoff appearance ever, guarding you know who, was also respectable. Powell also held his own.

But the reality is, and I said it here after game 2, the Cavs have at least seven players that are much more reliable than our best 3-point shooter from deep (LBJ, Kyrie, Love, Frye, Jr Smith, Korver and yes even Schumper). When you're faced with that kind of discrepancy, you can't make runs or sustain leads, no matter how good your other fundamentals are. A writer here at RR actually put the numbers up, confirming what I had suspected: this series had the biggest 4-game discrepancy in 3-point shooting ever in NBA history. I wish I was joking. You can't survive like this. Forget about free throws, reputation calls, respect or lack thereof, blablabla. It's the 3.

Some fans/players/commentators don't like this, saying this is oversimplifying the game, but there's no running away from it. You can't compete like this when you get in the top 8 like we did. Period. Even the Spurs, such a solid team, has trouble with the Rockets because of 3-point discrepancy. Now yes, when the 3 firepower is at least somewhat matched, yeah then everything makes a difference.

As down in the dumps as players and fans are right now, keep in mind this: we have a decent, carefully developed core, in the top 8, while also being the 3rd youngest team in the NBA. Lots of room to grow. But also keep in mind this: we have a glaring, crippling deficiency that will destroy us if not fixed: lack of 3pt shooting. What does that mean for the summer? You don't have to necessarily blow your core (it's a solid, promising one), but if you have to do it in order to get at least TWO elite shooters, do it. I'm not talking so-so ones, it's gotta be top in 3pt%, the caliber of Eric Gordon, Klay Thompson, Korver, C.J MacCollum, JJ Reddick etc...

That will be the true test for management in the off-season. If you can do that then it will show we learned something from this sweep.

Yeah, I think focusing only 3-pt shooting is very much an oversimplified way to look at it. Raptors offensive game was always built on: (1) getting to the FT line, (2) offensive rebounding, (3) limiting turnovers. That's Casey's system and there are many articles written on it. The way we need to be looking at it is: did we win the battles we normally do in the regular season vs. the playoffs. Did we play to our character?



As you can see, the Cavs destroyed us at the FT line - one of our biggest strengths. They also beat us on the OREBs, while we held a small advantage on turnovers. Meanwhile, we did nothing to limit their EFG% (which is what 3P shooting would reflect). That's on Casey as a defensive coach. So basically, the Cavs game-planned for us nicely, while we did nothing to limit them. And the Cavs are a piss-poor defensive team. Tristan Thompson was a huge, underrated factor for them and is one of the keys that allowed them to win the OREB battle over us. Biz destroyed him last year.

[slaw]

As you can see, the Cavs destroyed us at the FT line - one of our biggest strengths. They also beat us on the OREBs, while we held a small advantage on turnovers. Meanwhile, we did nothing to limit their EFG% (which is what 3P shooting would reflect). That's on Casey as a defensive coach. So basically, the Cavs game-planned for us nicely, while we did nothing to limit them. And the Cavs are a piss-poor defensive team. Tristan Thompson was a huge, underrated factor for them and is one of the keys that allowed them to win the OREB battle over us. Biz destroyed him last year

Aggregating stats can be problematic. Toronto won the OREB% battle in 3 of the 4 games. The reason your number is whacky is because Toronto only had one in Game 3. Otherwise, Toronto was the better team in terms of offensive rebounding.

In terms of free throws, yes, the Lebrons got the better of Toronto but it didn't have nearly the impact in order of magnitude that the three point shooting did. And that's the point. Toronto would have had to outscore the Cavs but massive amounts at the line to make up for the three point shooting discrepancy.

As to the defense, well, yeah, it sucked. But short of Toronto last year for two games and GSW for 3 games, no teams has stopped the Cavs playoff offense in two years. Maybe WSH or Boston or GSW will have better luck but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[rocwell]

[The Great One]

I agree somewhat. Not a big fan of the 3s (Except the ridiculous ones Curry makes), but I love the ball movement.

It is about the three point shot but we see tactical brilliance in getting guys open shots to maximize the advantage. Guys arent just sprinting to the line and shooting.

90s basketball was post ups and midrange, all ISO, ugly basketball. No beauty there unless you enjoy a good 1 on 1 battle (granted individual balances can shine through, but seems the genral sentiment on this forum is that its ineffecient and doesnt hold up unless you have an all time great talent).

I just miss the post up game, centers are basically extinct now.

I grew up a Rockets fan, Hakeem Olajuwon is my favourite player of all time(along with Vince). I think he's greatest C of all time. I miss the battle of the big men - Hakeem vs Robinson. Hakeem vs Ewing. Hakeem vs Shaq etc...

The game today is basically a 3pt contest. I don't really enjoy it. Curry is fun to watch though, he's unique. But whatever. NBA has to do something with the 3pt line. It's way too easy for these guys now.

[S.R.]

I just miss the post up game, centers are basically extinct now.

I grew up a Rockets fan, Hakeem Olajuwon is my favourite player of all time(along with Vince). I think he's greatest C of all time. I miss the battle of the big men - Hakeem vs Robinson. Hakeem vs Ewing. Hakeem vs Shaq etc...

The game today is basically a 3pt contest. I don't really enjoy it. Curry is fun to watch though, he's unique. But whatever. NBA has to do something with the 3pt line. It's way too easy for these guys now.

The game is definitely more interesting when there's value in scoring from any of the 5 positions and from everywhere on the floor. There's a bit of a one-dimensional dynamic to it when teams are just doing whatever they can to get 3 pt shooters open + jacking up shots basically as fast as they can manufacture them.

I get that the offense is exciting, and I agree, but there will also be a line where there's too much scoring too easily and then it actually gets less interesting, like an ASG. Friends not interested in basketball have occasionally commented it's because the first 46 minutes don't seem to mean anything, just run up and down the floor trading baskets, then you get a winner in the last two minutes of a 120-116 game. It's true, sometimes.

Nothing will change soon tho, the league is doing really well atm.

[Nilanka]

I just miss the post up game, centers are basically extinct now.

I grew up a Rockets fan, Hakeem Olajuwon is my favourite player of all time(along with Vince). I think he's greatest C of all time. I miss the battle of the big men - Hakeem vs Robinson. Hakeem vs Ewing. Hakeem vs Shaq etc...

The game today is basically a 3pt contest. I don't really enjoy it. Curry is fun to watch though, he's unique. But whatever. NBA has to do something with the 3pt line. It's way too easy for these guys now.

The game is definitely more interesting when there's value in scoring from any of the 5 positions and from everywhere on the floor. There's a bit of a one-dimensional dynamic to it when teams are just doing whatever they can to get 3 pt shooters open + jacking up shots basically as fast as they can manufacture them.

I get that the offense is exciting, and I agree, but there will also be a line where there's too much scoring too easily and then it actually gets less interesting, like an ASG. Friends not interested in basketball have occasionally commented it's because the first 46 minutes don't seem to mean anything, just run up and down the floor trading baskets, then you get a winner in the last two minutes of a 120-116 game. It's true, sometimes.

Nothing will change soon tho, the league is doing really well atm.

It could be that NBA defenses just haven't adapted to this new style of play yet. There's still much more league-wide emphasis in protecting the paint, than challenging the 3pt line.