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Is it time for MLSE to flex their muscle?

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  • Is it time for MLSE to flex their muscle?

    I'm seeing a lot of back and fourth on the board about which direction the Raptors should take this off season. It felt like they made an "all in" move by trading for Ibaka and Tucker, even though neither are what anyone would consider a difference maker. I'd love to see MLSE flex it's muscle by going into tax to make a true "all in" move.

    I'd love to see them sign Ibaka and Tucker and I think a few people on the board, most notably DanH, have already talked about which players would need to be moved to do this and remain under the salary cap. Then perhaps go into the tax to sign Milsap (PG just not realistic, right?).

    Lowry
    Powell
    DeRozan
    Milsap
    Ibaka

    What are your thoughts on the above? What's the version of a realistic "all in" move you would like to see?

  • #2
    Well, no. Dan's moves are to stay under the tax, not the cap. We can flex our muscle and sign our own players, not another team's.

    Comment


    • #3
      Only way to have cap space to sign Millsap, assuming he wants something close to the max, is to let Lowry, Ibaka, Patterson and Tucker walk, plus find a team to take on one of Carroll or JV's contracts.

      Personally I'd oppose such a plan.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

      Comment


      • #4
        Milsap isn't realistic either. The discussion is about staying under or around the luxury tax line, not the salary cap. The only way to improve the roster is via trade, as we are already over the cap. The only free agents we can sign are those we have bird rights to, i.e. our own players that are about to hit free agency (Lowry, Ibaka, Tucker, Patterson). If you want Milsap on the roster next season then the only way to get him is if he agrees to a sign and trade to come here, and that would negate the 5th year he could potentially receive on his contract if he signed with the Hawks.

        PG is actually more realistic as he is already under contract, but do we have the assets necessary to convince the Pacers to give him up? Not likely considering the competition from other teams offers. The Hawks supposedly offered 4 1st rounders (weird considering you can't trade consecutive 1st rounders, at least at the same time) at the deadline and the Pacers didn't bite. They might be more willing to trade him this offseason but BOS you would think has first crack at most superstar trade scenarios given their cache of assets.

        It seems most likely our roster will be very similar next season if Lowry is resigned. Patterson may be left to walk unless Carroll and Cojo are unloaded. Maybe scenarios involving JV are explored but hard to imagine any significant return in trades involving some combination of JV, Carroll, Cojo, prospects and future picks.

        Comment


        • #5
          JawsGT wrote: View Post
          Milsap isn't realistic either. The discussion is about staying under or around the luxury tax line, not the salary cap. The only way to improve the roster is via trade, as we are already over the cap. The only free agents we can sign are those we have bird rights to, i.e. our own players that are about to hit free agency (Lowry, Ibaka, Tucker, Patterson). If you want Milsap on the roster next season then the only way to get him is if he agrees to a sign and trade to come here, and that would negate the 5th year he could potentially receive on his contract if he signed with the Hawks.

          PG is actually more realistic as he is already under contract, but do we have the assets necessary to convince the Pacers to give him up? Not likely considering the competition from other teams offers. The Hawks supposedly offered 4 1st rounders (weird considering you can't trade consecutive 1st rounders, at least at the same time) at the deadline and the Pacers didn't bite. They might be more willing to trade him this offseason but BOS you would think has first crack at most superstar trade scenarios given their cache of assets.

          It seems most likely our roster will be very similar next season if Lowry is resigned. Patterson may be left to walk unless Carroll and Cojo are unloaded. Maybe scenarios involving JV are explored but hard to imagine any significant return in trades involving some combination of JV, Carroll, Cojo, prospects and future picks.
          Yeah Boston is poised to potentially dethrone the Cav's in the next few years. As much as I disliked Ainge the player, he's been a terrific GM thus far.

          So give me some ideas on what you think Masai can pull of this off season. How can we improve next season?

          Comment


          • #6
            LJ2 wrote: View Post
            Yeah Boston is poised to potentially dethrone the Cav's in the next few years. As much as I disliked Ainge the player, he's been a terrific GM thus far.

            So give me some ideas on what you think Masai can pull of this off season. How can we improve next season?
            It's going to be tough. Changing the system/coach/culture reset is perhaps most obvious. There is no space to sign free agents so can't improve that way.

            Really have to hope for development and growth of youngsters and a home run at the draft. Maybe rotation player x and pick 23 helps you move up a few spots. Maybe a trade results in addition by subtraction.

            Does this get you past the Cavs? Unlikely. But that is the very real challenge facing most teams in the east right now. How does a capped out team improve with a pick in the 20's? It's tough.

            Comment


            • #7
              LJ2 wrote: View Post
              I'm seeing a lot of back and fourth on the board about which direction the Raptors should take this off season. It felt like they made an "all in" move by trading for Ibaka and Tucker, even though neither are what anyone would consider a difference maker. I'd love to see MLSE flex it's muscle by going into tax to make a true "all in" move.

              I'd love to see them sign Ibaka and Tucker and I think a few people on the board, most notably DanH, have already talked about which players would need to be moved to do this and remain under the salary cap. Then perhaps go into the tax to sign Milsap (PG just not realistic, right?).

              Lowry
              Powell
              DeRozan
              Milsap
              Ibaka

              What are your thoughts on the above? What's the version of a realistic "all in" move you would like to see?
              Over and above the issues of clearing cap space to even be able to sign Millsap, who's to say Millsap would come here?. There have been multiple occasions of teams opening up cap space, only to have their target sign elsewhere. Almost all those teams plan B's did not work out whatsoever.
              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

              Comment


              • #8
                LJ2 wrote: View Post
                I'm seeing a lot of back and fourth on the board about which direction the Raptors should take this off season. It felt like they made an "all in" move by trading for Ibaka and Tucker, even though neither are what anyone would consider a difference maker. I'd love to see MLSE flex it's muscle by going into tax to make a true "all in" move.

                I'd love to see them sign Ibaka and Tucker and I think a few people on the board, most notably DanH, have already talked about which players would need to be moved to do this and remain under the salary cap. Then perhaps go into the tax to sign Milsap (PG just not realistic, right?).

                Lowry
                Powell
                DeRozan
                Milsap
                Ibaka

                What are your thoughts on the above? What's the version of a realistic "all in" move you would like to see?
                This shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to how our cap system works. We will not be able to go over the cap to sign a player for which we do not own the bird rights to just as an FYI.

                We can go over and resign our own players, but we cannot just randomly pick up any player we want. In fact after resigning lowry and ibaka and assuming we don't resign anyone else we can offer PM the mid level exception (5 million) which is going to be a no. Alternatively we can offer him a minimum contract, which again will be a no.


                On another note I would much rather have Ibaka for 4 years rather than Milsap for 4 just saying. I think Milsap is going to not age very well after next year.

                Lowry's production will peak after next year or the next but he does enough things and physically he will not be limited and will be effective in some sort of way.

                Comment


                • #9
                  LJ2 wrote: View Post
                  Yeah Boston is poised to potentially dethrone the Cav's in the next few years. As much as I disliked Ainge the player, he's been a terrific GM thus far.

                  So give me some ideas on what you think Masai can pull of this off season. How can we improve next season?
                  Danny Ainge is DECENT. He is highly overrated. He just got lucky that the Nets were just stupid and took that ridiculous trade.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                    Over and above the issues of clearing cap space to even be able to sign Millsap, who's to say Millsap would come here?. There have been multiple occasions of teams opening up cap space, only to have their target sign elsewhere. Almost all those teams plan B's did not work out whatsoever.
                    No way to know if Milsap would be interested in signing here. But Raptors are one of the better teams in the league so that has to be attractive I would hope

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
                      Danny Ainge is DECENT. He is highly overrated. He just got lucky that the Nets were just stupid and took that ridiculous trade.
                      He didn't get lucky with bringing KG, and Allen to Boston as well did he? Gotta give him credit for bringing a championship to Boston as well as for the quick turn around from the end of that era to what looks like a promising new one

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
                        It's going to be tough. Changing the system/coach/culture reset is perhaps most obvious. There is no space to sign free agents so can't improve that way.

                        Really have to hope for development and growth of youngsters and a home run at the draft. Maybe rotation player x and pick 23 helps you move up a few spots. Maybe a trade results in addition by subtraction.

                        Does this get you past the Cavs? Unlikely. But that is the very real challenge facing most teams in the east right now. How does a capped out team improve with a pick in the 20's? It's tough.
                        Does moving JV, Cojo, Carroll, letting Patterson walk and maybe Bruno or Nog get us under the cap?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
                          Danny Ainge is DECENT. He is highly overrated. He just got lucky that the Nets were just stupid and took that ridiculous trade.
                          Yeah, just got lucky in the Nets trade, just got lucky in the Rondo trade, just got lucky in the Thomas trade, just got lucky in the Garnett trade.
                          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            LJ2 wrote: View Post
                            Does moving JV, Cojo, Carroll, letting Patterson walk and maybe Bruno or Nog get us under the cap?
                            The thing is if you trade those guys a player has to come back in the trade generally. But let's assume you move all those guys for future picks.

                            Using rough numbers, that would bring the payroll from about 80 mill to about 40 mill. If you give give 30 mill to Lowry, 20 mill to Ibaka, and 10 mill to Tucker we're capped out basically. I didn't check exact salaries but to your question even if we dump all those guys for nothing we don't have much space if we want to keep Lowry/Ibaka/Tucker

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              LJ2 wrote: View Post
                              Yeah Boston is poised to potentially dethrone the Cav's in the next few years. As much as I disliked Ainge the player, he's been a terrific GM thus far.

                              So give me some ideas on what you think Masai can pull of this off season. How can we improve next season?
                              The options do seem limited. You know, I feel no shame in thinking before the playoffs that the Cavs were vulnerable and that the Raps may have had a chance to at least push them. And I think given their shoddy defense leading up to the playoffs alot of other people in the basketball world thought the same. But LBJ, and the Cavs, look as good as ever. There was a switch, and they flipped it when the playoffs started. For me, it's disappointing because the playoffs have proven to be utterly crappy. The only team that has any chance of beating the Cavs are the warriors, and they are proving to be just as dominant in the west as the cavs are in the east. The NBA has two teams, and everybody else is just fuckin' around. It sucks, it really sucks. It makes me question why I abandoned the NHL, which is ridiculously more exciting in the playoffs than the NBA. You can actually enjoy a hockey game that doesn't involve a team you cheer for.

                              Anyways, as for your question...well, based on what I just said you may already know what I'm going to write. But I really feel there is NOTHING Masai can do in this offseason to lift this team into contention. And 2 months ago I really felt we were very close, now I understand the gap is too great to be overcome in a single offseason given the roster composition and impending free agents. But if we want to improve, even a little, then MU needs to deliver on his promise to change the system. That absolutely needs to happen and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a coaching change. I think we have to resign Lowry and Ibaka at least. I'd try and keep Tucker too but I'd let Patterson walk. I'd explore trades for JV, but I'm not moving him to save money, I only trade him if I believe the return makes us better. If JV were traded, I'd want a solid rebounder with more defensive upside coming back (not too Biz Macky, need to at least be more reliable in the PnR). Now, that player doesn't necessarily have to be involved in the JV trade, but we need a player like that on the team in JV's absence. So if you can get that in a Carroll + Cojo deal, that would be fine too and then maybe you try and get another decent player in return for JV. I think in Carroll's absence you need an actual SF. Powell and Bruno don't cut it to back up PJ IMO. In fact, I'd rather have PJ come off the bench so getting a starting SF would be important. I don't know who...is their a decent option out their on a rookie scale deal that might be had in a JV trade? Risky, cause if you pull that trigger but can't unload Carroll then it was possibly a stupid move.

                              No great insight from me, all this has been posted on the forums by others. But improving certainly starts with the culture/system change. That may or may not involve Casey. Hard to believe it could but maybe he can help deliver MU's vision. Roster change may be minor as I outlined unless Lowry walks. Improvement is possible I think but I don't think I can envision a sequence of events that can occur this offseason that allows us to jump to contender status next season. BOS is perhaps the only team I can see making that leap.

                              The NBA is so top heavy at the moment that it makes me wonder if the Hinkie approach is actually the correct way to build a team. Just keep sucking until you hit a guy that can be top 2 or 3 in the league and then maybe you have a shot. And if that's the case then I'm not sure why I watch at all. The idea that someone can beat the best is important in team league sports IMO. Without that, then why give a shit? Not like I work for the team or am part of ownership or something. I'm just a guy that loves basketball and am attached to the Raptors because they rep the country. When the regular season is more exciting than the playoffs, then there is something seriously wrong IMO.

                              Hopefully MU figures something out and surprises me for next season.

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