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just how bad was the 2016_17 season

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  • #31
    Abbas wrote: View Post
    How's this for a off-season

    Sign Jrue Holiday, Danilo Gallinari, Serge Ibaka, PJT, and a SF/PF free agent (VC and Bosh?)

    Trade - JV, Carroll, Cojo/Wright, and 23rd pick to Spurs for LMA and salary fillers

    Starting Line Ups
    Holiday- Wright
    DeRozan - Powell
    Gallinari - PJT
    Aldridge - Bosh
    Ibaka - Jakob

    Shooting plus DeRozan
    Holiday
    DeRozan
    Tucker
    Gallinari
    Ibaka

    All Defense
    Holiday
    Powell
    Tucker
    Bosh
    Ibaka

    All Offense
    Holiday
    DeRozan
    Gallinari
    Aldridge
    Bosh

    Closing
    Holiday
    DeRozan
    Gallinari
    Aldridge
    Bosh
    Uh, with what cap space?

    Comment


    • #32
      SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
      Uh, with what cap space?
      We'll all pitch in with $5 each!

      Comment


      • #33
        Abbas wrote: View Post
        How's this for a off-season

        Sign Jrue Holiday, Danilo Gallinari, Serge Ibaka, PJT, and a SF/PF free agent (VC and Bosh?)

        Trade - JV, Carroll, Cojo/Wright, and 23rd pick to Spurs for LMA and salary fillers

        Starting Line Ups
        Holiday- Wright
        DeRozan - Powell
        Gallinari - PJT
        Aldridge - Bosh
        Ibaka - Jakob

        Shooting plus DeRozan
        Holiday
        DeRozan
        Tucker
        Gallinari
        Ibaka

        All Defense
        Holiday
        Powell
        Tucker
        Bosh
        Ibaka

        All Offense
        Holiday
        DeRozan
        Gallinari
        Aldridge
        Bosh

        Closing
        Holiday
        DeRozan
        Gallinari
        Aldridge
        Bosh
        Your scenarios get crazier and crazier.

        Comment


        • #34
          SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
          Uh, with what cap space?
          We talking bout cap space?

          Cap space? Cap space??


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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          • #35
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            I view the 2016/2017 season as further proof of what the general consensus has been for the past 3-4 seasons; the Raptors with the current core (ie: Casey, Lowry & DeRozan) are in the top-tier of non-contender teams. They are great in the regular season and should win a round or two in the playoffs, but aren't a legitimate threat for the title.

            It's fun to watch 'our' team win, especially after 20 years of futility, but with expectations increasing this Cinderella has lost her slipper. Unfortunately, there seems to be no chance for this team as currently constructed to truly contend, since the core has reached its ceiling and the team is well beyond being capped out (if the core is to be kept together).

            I think that's why this offseason feels like such a crossroads for the team (coaching staff and roster), given the decisive reality check delivered by LBJ & co. Is that status quo of winning but not contending sufficient for MLSE (great for profitability), or is it time to retool/rebuild in the hopes of increasing the team's competitive ceiling in the long-term?
            Everyone not named the Warriors or Cavs has proven themselves to be outside of the contender tier during the last three seasons though. Spurs, Raptors, Clippers, Rockets, Hawks, Celtics, Grizzlies, etc. They've all reeled off good regular seasons over the last three seasons and none of them have been anywhere near a title. Kind of a unique situation the NBA has found themselves right now where you can be the clear cut, third best team in the league and still have next to no chance at even making the Finals.

            And I'm not saying that we should just accept being a second or third round out in the playoffs year after year, and that the team shouldn't work feverishly to somehow break into that next echelon, I'm just wondering where we draw the line with the "not a true contender so might as well retool the roster" stuff... Should Houston break it up? Clippers? Spurs? Wizards? How long do we give a team like the Jazz to become a "legit threat" for the title before they should scrap it? One or two more years?

            I used to think the term "treadmill team" was reserved for those franchises spinning their wheels over a 4 or 5 year span just to try and get a bottom seed in the playoffs - but now I feel like it means any team that goes a few seasons without vying for the title. However in the current NBA climate that means every team from 3rd in the league on down.

            Comment


            • #36
              Fully wrote: View Post
              Everyone not named the Warriors or Cavs has proven themselves to be outside of the contender tier during the last three seasons though. Spurs, Raptors, Clippers, Rockets, Hawks, Celtics, Grizzlies, etc. They've all reeled off good regular seasons over the last three seasons and none of them have been anywhere near a title. Kind of a unique situation the NBA has found themselves right now where you can be the clear cut, third best team in the league and still have next to no chance at even making the Finals.

              And I'm not saying that we should just accept being a second or third round out in the playoffs year after year, and that the team shouldn't work feverishly to somehow break into that next echelon, I'm just wondering where we draw the line with the "not a true contender so might as well retool the roster" stuff... Should Houston break it up? Clippers? Spurs? Wizards? How long do we give a team like the Jazz to become a "legit threat" for the title before they should scrap it? One or two more years?

              I used to think the term "treadmill team" was reserved for those franchises spinning their wheels over a 4 or 5 year span just to try and get a bottom seed in the playoffs - but now I feel like it means any team that goes a few seasons without vying for the title. However in the current NBA climate that means every team from 3rd in the league on down.
              Fair enough, but the Raptors are going to have to become a luxury tax team just to keep the current roster together, which seems to have reached its ceiling. The all-star PG is getting older and has proven to be injury prone, the all-NBA leading scorer only plays on one end of the court and can be shut down by a good defense, and the head coach seems to be sitting on at least a fairly warm seat.

              All that doesn't exactly inspire confidence that this team is poised to show any sign of improvement in the next season or two, so the question is do you wait to retool until the decision is made for you (ie: Lowry chooses to leave, Casey's contract is up, etc...), or do you proactively make a move now in order to have the improvements come to fruition as the Cavs/Warriors dominance window is closing a couple seasons from now?

              Comment


              • #37
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                All that doesn't exactly inspire confidence that this team is poised to show any sign of improvement in the next season or two, so the question is do you wait to retool until the decision is made for you (ie: Lowry chooses to leave, Casey's contract is up, etc...), or do you proactively make a move now in order to have the improvements come to fruition as the Cavs/Warriors dominance window is closing a couple seasons from now?
                I guess I'm less convinced of some of the things you've stated than you are. The Raptors still have one of the 5 youngest rosters in the league, and aren't handcuffed by any particularly bad deals aside from maybe Carroll. Yes, they will be in the tax after this season if they retain Lowry et al but that's not my money so I'm not really concerned about that, at least in the short term. Overall I think they're in a decent spot as a franchise where they're in the top third of the league but still have plenty of assets, youth and all of their draft assets intact.

                And I'm all for tweaking the roster, or changing the coach (this should be the Raptors first option) to try and get the current incarnation of this roster to the next level - I just don't buy that a rebuild should be looming because we've only been one of the 5 or 6 best teams in the league over the last few years. It's like we all forgot the first 20 years of this franchise ever happened.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Fully wrote: View Post
                  Everyone not named the Warriors or Cavs has proven themselves to be outside of the contender tier during the last three seasons though. Spurs, Raptors, Clippers, Rockets, Hawks, Celtics, Grizzlies, etc. They've all reeled off good regular seasons over the last three seasons and none of them have been anywhere near a title. Kind of a unique situation the NBA has found themselves right now where you can be the clear cut, third best team in the league and still have next to no chance at even making the Finals.

                  And I'm not saying that we should just accept being a second or third round out in the playoffs year after year, and that the team shouldn't work feverishly to somehow break into that next echelon, I'm just wondering where we draw the line with the "not a true contender so might as well retool the roster" stuff... Should Houston break it up? Clippers? Spurs? Wizards? How long do we give a team like the Jazz to become a "legit threat" for the title before they should scrap it? One or two more years?

                  I used to think the term "treadmill team" was reserved for those franchises spinning their wheels over a 4 or 5 year span just to try and get a bottom seed in the playoffs - but now I feel like it means any team that goes a few seasons without vying for the title. However in the current NBA climate that means every team from 3rd in the league on down.
                  Well said. I really don't understand this new generation. It's like if you can't 100% guarantee them success in something, then they automatically assume failure and don't even want to try their best and see where that takes them. Like somehow, to them, there's no honor in that.

                  When I grew up, you always had your powerhouse teams that looked unbeatable, but that never stopped you from rooting for your own guys on your hometown team. And that never stopped your home team from trying to assemble the best possible roster they could. You tweaked your core, you made trades, you changed the coach. Upsets actually did happen from time-to-time, which made it even sweeter when David knocked off Goliath.

                  Maybe it's the money at stake and social media that is pressuring guys like Lebron and Durant to feel like they have to stack the deck to 100% guarantee that they have a shot at winning it all. Who knows? Championships are great, but only 1 out of 30 teams can win it. So, if every team perfectly executed Philly's "proper rebuild" strategy, you could still be waiting 29 years for your turn to win it all. Following a sports team is supposed to be escapist entertainment, not prolonged torture and disappointment with persistent yearnings of "let's burn this all down to the ground".

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                  • #39
                    just how bad was the 2016_17 season

                    golden wrote: View Post
                    Well said. I really don't understand this new generation. It's like if you can't 100% guarantee them success in something, then they automatically assume failure and don't even want to try their best and see where that takes them. Like somehow, to them, there's no honor in that.

                    When I grew up, you always had your powerhouse teams that looked unbeatable, but that never stopped you from rooting for your own guys on your hometown team. And that never stopped your home team from trying to assemble the best possible roster they could. You tweaked your core, you made trades, you changed the coach. Upsets actually did happen from time-to-time, which made it even sweeter when David knocked off Goliath.

                    Maybe it's the money at stake and social media that is pressuring guys like Lebron and Durant to feel like they have to stack the deck to 100% guarantee that they have a shot at winning it all. Who knows? Championships are great, but only 1 out of 30 teams can win it. So, if every team perfectly executed Philly's "proper rebuild" strategy, you could still be waiting 29 years for your turn to win it all. Following a sports team is supposed to be escapist entertainment, not prolonged torture and disappointment with persistent yearnings of "let's burn this all down to the ground".

                    Well said. One word....entitlement.

                    I feel like there's this "guarantee us a championship or blow it up talk" every year.

                    When did 50+ wins and winning a playoff round or two make everyone so sad? There are 29 losers and only 1 winner at the end of it all, each year.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    Last edited by special1; Sat May 27, 2017, 12:15 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      Well said. I really don't understand this new generation. It's like if you can't 100% guarantee them success in something, then they automatically assume failure and don't even want to try their best and see where that takes them. Like somehow, to them, there's no honor in that.
                      Not sure what generation you are referring to. We have a pretty broad spectrum of ages here, so hard to really single out any.

                      I don't think it's about guaranteeing success (and the idea of entitlement is ridiculous) but every team wants to be improving and moving forwards. That's where the treadmill term originated, a team that isn't moving forwards and that's the concern with this current group. Our roster won't have many ways to significantly improve (low picks and no cap space) and it's hard to have much faith in the core suddenly playing better in the playoffs (especially with bringing Casey back).

                      golden wrote: View Post
                      When I grew up, you always had your powerhouse teams that looked unbeatable, but that never stopped you from rooting for your own guys on your hometown team. And that never stopped your home team from trying to assemble the best possible roster they could. You tweaked your core, you made trades, you changed the coach.
                      We've done two of three without much difference - but as long as Casey is the coach, there will be many who believe we aren't going to be better.

                      golden wrote: View Post
                      Upsets actually did happen from time-to-time, which made it even sweeter when David knocked off Goliath.
                      Upsets have always been more rare in NBA compared to other sports. And we should be thankful for that since the way we haven't been able to really take care of business vs lower seeds.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • #41
                        Fully wrote: View Post
                        I guess I'm less convinced of some of the things you've stated than you are. The Raptors still have one of the 5 youngest rosters in the league, and aren't handcuffed by any particularly bad deals aside from maybe Carroll. Yes, they will be in the tax after this season if they retain Lowry et al but that's not my money so I'm not really concerned about that, at least in the short term. Overall I think they're in a decent spot as a franchise where they're in the top third of the league but still have plenty of assets, youth and all of their draft assets intact.

                        And I'm all for tweaking the roster, or changing the coach (this should be the Raptors first option) to try and get the current incarnation of this roster to the next level - I just don't buy that a rebuild should be looming because we've only been one of the 5 or 6 best teams in the league over the last few years. It's like we all forgot the first 20 years of this franchise ever happened.
                        One of the 5 youngest? We were the 15th youngest by weighted minutes played. ie. Our best players are older. They have also hit their ceilings so we will be getting older next year without getting growth out of them. We don't have a single blue chip prospect under 22 for the start of next season.

                        Being a tax team isn't about whether it's "our money" or not, it's about how it limits future moves and how it reflects the status of our contracts. I wouldn't care an ounce if our team salary was $200 million if we were an actual contender. But being a tax team is a danger sign that our contracts may start looking sour soon, especially given the ages of those involved. Carroll has already proven this. Lowry and Ibaka could be next.

                        We don't have plenty of assets either. We have Norman Powell and a collection of question marks. Our picks are all late first rounders with marginal value.

                        It's comforting to paint our position as rosy but CRF is right, we are at a major crossroads right now. If we get stuck as a tax team with limited avenues for improvement, we may simply be delaying the inevitable--by several years.

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                        • #42
                          golden wrote: View Post
                          Well said. I really don't understand this new generation. It's like if you can't 100% guarantee them success in something, then they automatically assume failure and don't even want to try their best and see where that takes them. Like somehow, to them, there's no honor in that.

                          When I grew up, you always had your powerhouse teams that looked unbeatable, but that never stopped you from rooting for your own guys on your hometown team. And that never stopped your home team from trying to assemble the best possible roster they could. You tweaked your core, you made trades, you changed the coach. Upsets actually did happen from time-to-time, which made it even sweeter when David knocked off Goliath.

                          Maybe it's the money at stake and social media that is pressuring guys like Lebron and Durant to feel like they have to stack the deck to 100% guarantee that they have a shot at winning it all. Who knows? Championships are great, but only 1 out of 30 teams can win it. So, if every team perfectly executed Philly's "proper rebuild" strategy, you could still be waiting 29 years for your turn to win it all. Following a sports team is supposed to be escapist entertainment, not prolonged torture and disappointment with persistent yearnings of "let's burn this all down to the ground".
                          special1 wrote: View Post
                          Well said. One word....entitlement.

                          I feel like there's this "guarantee us a championship or blow it up talk" every year.

                          When did 50+ wins and winning a playoff round or two make everyone so sad? There are 29 losers and only 1 winner at the end of it all, each year.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                          It's not about entitlement at all. It's about being realistic.

                          At what point do you decide that what you're doing isn't working? Do we have to go seven years without making a Finals? Eight? Ten?

                          No one expects guaranteed success. What people want is the hope of competing against the best. This year we made serious moves and still got absolutely wrecked. It seems utterly delusional to measure this season as a success and to put the blame on expectations.

                          One reason the treadmill term exists is because as you are running in place other teams are getting better. In 3-5 years when Lebron, KD, and Curry are fading, the Wolves and the Sixers may be leapfrogging ahead of us.

                          To compete in the NBA you need a superlative talent. If we had a legit superstar to retool around you wouldn't hear any tanking talk. But we just don't have that guy.

                          Do I think we should rebuild? Probably not. But it shouldn't be ruled out with such derision. There is a chance that not even a new coach gives us the edge we need. If Masai takes a look at the roster and makes that assessment then a teardown is perfectly valid.

                          But given that Casey seems to be coming back, it seems more likely that there is no imperative for real change when a 50-win season stretched out over most of the year will satisfy the fanbase, who seem to quickly forget about a couple weeks of playoff failure.

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                          • #43
                            just how bad was the 2016_17 season

                            Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            It's not about entitlement at all. It's about being realistic.

                            At what point do you decide that what you're doing isn't working? Do we have to go seven years without making a Finals? Eight? Ten?

                            No one expects guaranteed success. What people want is the hope of competing against the best. This year we made serious moves and still got absolutely wrecked. It seems utterly delusional to measure this season as a success and to put the blame on expectations.

                            One reason the treadmill term exists is because as you are running in place other teams are getting better. In 3-5 years when Lebron, KD, and Curry are fading, the Wolves and the Sixers may be leapfrogging ahead of us.

                            To compete in the NBA you need a superlative talent. If we had a legit superstar to retool around you wouldn't hear any tanking talk. But we just don't have that guy.

                            Do I think we should rebuild? Probably not. But it shouldn't be ruled out with such derision. There is a chance that not even a new coach gives us the edge we need. If Masai takes a look at the roster and makes that assessment then a teardown is perfectly valid.

                            But given that Casey seems to be coming back, it seems more likely that there is no imperative for real change when a 50-win season stretched out over most of the year will satisfy the fanbase, who seem to quickly forget about a couple weeks of playoff failure.
                            If Masai wants to rebuild I'm fine with it. That would mean that he has an EXCELLENT plan in place and I would give him the benefit of the doubt for a little while.

                            I just don't see it happening so I think those of us who don't see us taking that path are actually the ones being realistic.

                            This team or that team MAY be better than us 5 years from now..... terrible argument.

                            No thanks!

                            I would rather stick with a 50+ win team and make adjustments. Maybe we'll get our lucky breaks via smart trades/late round gems/ free agent (Wiggins).

                            You guys seem to be in a hurry to go back to the laughing stock days.

                            How's that working out for the other tankers? Wasn't it said about 5 years ago that we were supposed to start seeing contention from tanking teams about now? Nothing so far. Promise, injuries and futility...... rinse and repeat.

                            Then their best players become free agents (restricted or otherwise). Let's see if they can keep them..... that was always the kicker with me. Lose for 5+ years and then expect these kids to stick with you.... short thinking.



                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            Last edited by special1; Sun May 28, 2017, 11:00 AM.

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                            • #44
                              special1 wrote: View Post
                              You guys seem to be in a hurry to go back to the laughing stock days.
                              We still are come playoff time. Nobody respects this team and everyone believes that we are a favourable matchup.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                just how bad was the 2016_17 season

                                Axel wrote: View Post
                                We still are come playoff time. Nobody respects this team and everyone believes that we are a favourable matchup.
                                How'd that work out for the Pacers, Heat and Bucks (this year).

                                It's funny that we only lost to the Cavs (the champions), in the last 2 playoffs.

                                Who cares if other teams don't respect us, we still won vs everyone except the Cavs (in the last 2 playoffs).

                                So that argument about no respect doesn't actually translate to them winning the series, it's pointless.



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