Everything OG Anunoby

[planetmars]

Yep. We are in agreement. The franchise is betting on development, like we always have. Just isn’t working like it did before, since Nurse.

What we disagree on is that you think lack of player development in the Nurse era is 100% Masai and players, and 0% Nurse.

We can even extend this problem to lack of bench development in the Nurse era, which was rarely a problem under Casey, rather a strength.

Is a head coach really responsible for development? Was it Casey that developed his bench? Because he's doing a sh!t job in Detroit and he's had far better prospects (ie, more lottery picks) to work with there than he ever did in Toronto.

The difference ultimately was that we had peak Kyle Lowry to help lift up the bench, and we don't have that type of player anymore.

It's ultimately in my opinion about the talent and who can help raise the talent for other players. Pascal and Fred aren't talent raisers. We are missing that guy from this team the past couple of seasons.

[The Great One]

Is a head coach really responsible for development? Was it Casey that developed his bench? Because he's doing a sh!t job in Detroit and he's had far better prospects (ie, more lottery picks) to work with there than he ever did in Toronto.

The difference ultimately was that we had peak Kyle Lowry to help lift up the bench, and we don't have that type of player anymore.

It's ultimately in my opinion about the talent and who can help raise the talent for other players. Pascal and Fred aren't talent raisers. We are missing that guy from this team the past couple of seasons.

No. The difference is we had good young players back then. Siakam, OG, Powell, Fred, Poeltl, Wright.

With the current roster that we have who's the only good young player we have? Barnes.

Are you saying golden that if Casey was here that guys like Banton and Flynn, Koloko and Johnson and Harper etc..would develop into NBA rotational players?

Just because the Raptors drafted them doesn't mean they're going to turn into rotational players.

[LJ2]

I actually think this roster could win 50 a season with the talent they have, if they went with a more traditional system. However, like those Lowry/DeMar lead teams they would probably not get past the second round because they lack a superstar that can score when the game slows down to a half court set. That's why they run the system the do, so they can give themselves the edge they are lacking without a superstar. The edge being extra possessions and an offense where you can't focus as much on one or two guys only. Unfortunately, the system is proving to be too difficult to run effectively right now. You can speculate over the many reasons why they haven't been able to run it effectively this season.

[Kagemusha]

Nothing untrue about what Masai said is there? We did develop DeMar and Jak, as well as JV to the point where other teams wanted them. You're taking his words too literally if you think he means we have to win the championship with only players we have developed on the roster.

I forgot JV.
His statement sounded literal to me.
With his developed players as being the cornerstone, and then adding pieces around them.

The only key players we drafted in that 2019 team were Pascal and Fred.

[DanH]

Is a head coach really responsible for development? Was it Casey that developed his bench? Because he's doing a sh!t job in Detroit and he's had far better prospects (ie, more lottery picks) to work with there than he ever did in Toronto.

The difference ultimately was that we had peak Kyle Lowry to help lift up the bench, and we don't have that type of player anymore.

It's ultimately in my opinion about the talent and who can help raise the talent for other players. Pascal and Fred aren't talent raisers. We are missing that guy from this team the past couple of seasons.

Considering the success the bench units have had when we don't go insane and instead do the simple obvious thing like putting Pascal or Scottie out there with a couple shooters, I'd say we do actually have that sort of player on the roster still. And if we use them properly we actually have decent useable depth in Boucher, Precious, Koloko, Dowtin, Gary...

[planetmars]

I actually think this roster could win 50 a season with the talent they have, if they went with a more traditional system. However, like those Lowry/DeMar lead teams they would probably not get past the second round because they lack a superstar that can score when the game slows down to a half court set. That's why they run the system the do, so they can give themselves the edge they are lacking without a superstar. The edge being extra possessions and an offense where you can't focus as much on one or two guys only. Unfortunately, the system is proving to be too difficult to run effectively right now. You can speculate over the many reasons why they haven't been able to run it effectively this season.

This roster was lacking a center. It didn't help matters when Precious went down - but he too is an undersized big. I think this team would have hit 50 if we had Poeltl all year.

The real concern is depth and developing that depth. Masai I think wants to create a pipe line based system where when the better players age or leave, we have young guys to come in and replace them. We had that with DeMar and Lowry as we had Pascal/Fred/OG/Norm/Wright/Poeltl coming up through the pipe lines.

We have been missing that.. and it's not really about the system. It's about guys just not being good enough. You can even go back a few years, but our farm system needs help to produce better prospects. Outside of Scottie, who are we thinking will be the guys that could end up as an every day starter? I'm not even sure Precious is that guy as he's been hot and cold, and mostly cold this year.

We've had a few misses for non-basketball reasons with Harris and Davis. But I mean we didn't even make the 905 playoffs this year. First time since Masai got here, and that was the inaugural season.

[planetmars]

Considering the success the bench units have had when we don't go insane and instead do the simple obvious thing like putting Pascal or Scottie out there with a couple shooters, I'd say we do actually have that sort of player on the roster still. And if we use them properly we actually have decent useable depth in Boucher, Precious, Koloko, Dowtin, Gary...

"Success" was not the same though when Lowry was leading those bench units. Although I don't have the numbers, I just remember Lowry+bench were winning most of their minutes consistently.

It's tough to find two shooters on this team though. Especially when we have so few of them. Gary I guess would be the only bench shooter unless you consider Wieskamp one.

[DanH]

"Success" was not the same though when Lowry was leading those bench units. Although I don't have the numbers, I just remember Lowry+bench were winning most of their minutes consistently.

It's tough to find two shooters on this team though. Especially when we have so few of them. Gary I guess would be the only bench shooter unless you consider Wieskamp one.

Depends on the year. Some years Lowry+bench was straight up dominant. Some years break even. Either way that's fine for what you want from a bench group, you want to win games on the backs of your best players (because that's how you win in the playoffs) and you just want your bench to perform well enough to buy minutes for those top guys. Like, in 16-17 Lowry+bench was a single lineup with huge minutes and was dominant in winning those minutes. 200+ minutes from Lowry, Patterson, CoJo, Ross and BeBe, +12 net rating. Same with the year before with Biyombo. However, the following year (17-18) the most used bench lineup with Lowry and no DeMar played 21 minutes total, instead you had a mishmash of lineups with a wide range of success (and lack of success) rates. 2014-15 was a similar story, 3-4 main major Lowry bench lineups and they averaged out to break even or so.

But all of those results are fine. Just what you want from your bench.

Two shooters is easy when healthy. Just pair your creator starter with a shooter starter for their bench groups and have Gary out there with them. Boucher and Precious are not quite completely useless from three when used properly, as well. And Dowtin can fill in gaps if you run into foul or minute distribution issues with your starting shooters.

[golden]

Depends on the year. Some years Lowry+bench was straight up dominant. Some years break even. Either way that's fine for what you want from a bench group, you want to win games on the backs of your best players (because that's how you win in the playoffs) and you just want your bench to perform well enough to buy minutes for those top guys. Like, in 16-17 Lowry+bench was a single lineup with huge minutes and was dominant in winning those minutes. 200+ minutes from Lowry, Patterson, CoJo, Ross and BeBe, +12 net rating. Same with the year before with Biyombo. However, the following year (17-18) the most used bench lineup with Lowry and no DeMar played 21 minutes total, instead you had a mishmash of lineups with a wide range of success (and lack of success) rates. 2014-15 was a similar story, 3-4 main major Lowry bench lineups and they averaged out to break even or so.

But all of those results are fine. Just what you want from your bench.

Two shooters is easy when healthy. Just pair your creator starter with a shooter starter for their bench groups and have Gary out there with them. Boucher and Precious are not quite completely useless from three when used properly, as well. And Dowtin can fill in gaps if you run into foul or minute distribution issues with your starting shooters.

Patterson, Cojo and Bebe is the amazing bench talent that we just aren’t bringing in these days. Lol. Right, PM?

[golden]

No. The difference is we had good young players back then. Siakam, OG, Powell, Fred, Poeltl, Wright.

With the current roster that we have who's the only good young player we have? Barnes.

Are you saying golden that if Casey was here that guys like Banton and Flynn, Koloko and Johnson and Harper etc..would develop into NBA rotational players?

Just because the Raptors drafted them doesn't mean they're going to turn into rotational players.

Those young guys were all so great that we sent them all down to the G-League, except OG.

Sure, most young players and reclaim vet bench guys wash out, but Nurse’s young player and bench development batting average is close to zero, in comparison to the elite batting average of the previous era.

There has to be at least “greater than 0%”cause attributed to Nurse or the coaching/development staff, as a whole.

[DanH]

Patterson, Cojo and Bebe is the amazing bench talent that we just aren’t bringing in these days. Lol. Right, PM?

Patterson was an elite impact bench player. Ross was pretty functional back then as well.

I actually think we have a pretty comparable set of bench players right now. Boucher is the new Patterson. Gary can be Ross. And Koloko/Precious should be able to replicate the Bebe stuff. Dowtin is young but can be functional like CoJo. We don't have the Lowry magic but we have guys who can take that bench group and hold their own and that's all we need.

We haven't put together a consistent bench rotation (which is silly but here we are) so we have a bunch of bench lineups with 20-30 minutes together.

But overall, Pascal with Gary and Boucher (to filter for the good bench groups), but without Scottie, has a +9 net rating on the year. Swap Scottie in for Pascal and he has a +1 net rating. Solid gains and break even ball. Perfectly acceptable bench outcome.

[LJ2]

This roster was lacking a center. It didn't help matters when Precious went down - but he too is an undersized big. I think this team would have hit 50 if we had Poeltl all year.

The real concern is depth and developing that depth. Masai I think wants to create a pipe line based system where when the better players age or leave, we have young guys to come in and replace them. We had that with DeMar and Lowry as we had Pascal/Fred/OG/Norm/Wright/Poeltl coming up through the pipe lines.

We have been missing that.. and it's not really about the system. It's about guys just not being good enough. You can even go back a few years, but our farm system needs help to produce better prospects. Outside of Scottie, who are we thinking will be the guys that could end up as an every day starter? I'm not even sure Precious is that guy as he's been hot and cold, and mostly cold this year.

We've had a few misses for non-basketball reasons with Harris and Davis. But I mean we didn't even make the 905 playoffs this year. First time since Masai got here, and that was the inaugural season.

Fortunately Scottie is really good so didn't have to go through the 905, but Koloko and Dowtin both could potentially become rotation guys or starters. This team has been really good in the recent past so makes sense the cupboards are fairly empty.

[golden]

Patterson was an elite impact bench player. Ross was pretty functional back then as well.

I actually think we have a pretty comparable set of bench players right now. Boucher is the new Patterson. Gary can be Ross. And Koloko/Precious should be able to replicate the Bebe stuff. Dowtin is young but can be functional like CoJo. We don't have the Lowry magic but we have guys who can take that bench group and hold their own and that's all we need.

We haven't put together a consistent bench rotation (which is silly but here we are) so we have a bunch of bench lineups with 20-30 minutes together.

But overall, Pascal with Gary and Boucher (to filter for the good bench groups), but without Scottie, has a +9 net rating on the year. Swap Scottie in for Pascal and he has a +1 net rating. Solid gains and break even ball. Perfectly acceptable bench outcome.

Fully agree. Nurse has enough bench players to work with. Bench consistency is actually the complete opposite of how Nurse likes to run a rotation. He cares very little about developing a bench… he’s just looking for 6-7 guys he can trust unconditionally in the playoffs, in any situation. It worked once.

[golden]

Patterson was an elite impact bench player. Ross was pretty functional back then as well.

I actually think we have a pretty comparable set of bench players right now. Boucher is the new Patterson. Gary can be Ross. And Koloko/Precious should be able to replicate the Bebe stuff. Dowtin is young but can be functional like CoJo. We don't have the Lowry magic but we have guys who can take that bench group and hold their own and that's all we need.

We haven't put together a consistent bench rotation (which is silly but here we are) so we have a bunch of bench lineups with 20-30 minutes together.

But overall, Pascal with Gary and Boucher (to filter for the good bench groups), but without Scottie, has a +9 net rating on the year. Swap Scottie in for Pascal and he has a +1 net rating. Solid gains and break even ball. Perfectly acceptable bench outcome.

Patterson’s eliteness was a product of inflated on/off net ratings, with the ‘off’ guy being Scola and the guy he was usually ‘on’ with being Kyle Lowry.

[DanH]

Patterson’s eliteness was a product of inflated on/off net ratings, with the ‘off’ guy being Scola and the guy he was usually ‘on’ with being Kyle Lowry.

Right. But the starters when they used him in there also smacked around other starters. He wasn't bad. He was good. Just should have been starting as a 5th starter type rather than being a top notch bench guy.