Do demarre carolls words have merit?

[Fully]

I think DMC's ego is severely beat up after everything that happened to end last season (losing his starting spot in the playoffs and watching his minutes be cut back in favour of a late season acquisition and a young 2nd rounder respectively) and this summer (being such a negative asset that the team that signed you to a big free agent deal two years ago had to staple multiple real assets to you just for another franchise to take you off their hands), and he's trying to make himself feel better by blaming it on the coach, his teammates, the culture, or whatever else he can use. He's also on his way to NBA jail for the next two years in Brooklyn - where he'll be lucky to sniff 25 wins. He has plenty to be salty about.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it - Carroll's overarching point is valid; they did rely too much on iso ball and the system in Toronto is probably the wrong one for maximizing a player like Carroll's talents. But he's also been a band aid who is constantly injured since he arrived in Raptorland, and has proven himself no longer capable of hitting open shots or staying in front of folks on defence. I have a hard time blaming the 'system' in Toronto for that.

[Ball]

I think DMC's ego is severely beat up after everything that happened to end last season (losing his starting spot in the playoffs and watching his minutes be cut back in favour of a late season acquisition and a young 2nd rounder respectively) and this summer (being such a negative asset that the team that signed you to a big free agent deal two years ago had to staple multiple real assets to you just for another franchise to take you off their hands), and he's trying to make himself feel better by blaming it on the coach, his teammates, the culture, or whatever else he can use. He's also on his way to NBA jail for the next two years in Brooklyn - where he'll be lucky to sniff 25 wins. He has plenty to be salty about.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it - Carroll's overarching point is valid; they did rely too much on iso ball and the system in Toronto is probably the wrong one for maximizing a player like Carroll's talents. But he's also been a band aid who is constantly injured since he arrived in Raptorland, and has proven himself no longer capable of hitting open shots or staying in front of folks on defence. I have a hard time blaming the 'system' in Toronto for that.

I mean despite our iso-oriented system, Carroll got plenty of open catch-and-shoot opportunities as a result. And he was pretty bad at making those. At some point, we all realized that Carroll is an empty shell of what he used to be. It didn't help that when he tried to do more on offense, he looked like a disaster.

[3inthekeon]

One guy played with Lowry and the other didn't

Carroll was +1.0 after the trade. JV was +0.9, Norm +2.4, Ibaka +3.3, Poeltl +4.1, DD +4.2 .

Patterson's +5.0 was also the team's Net RTG after the trade.

Corey was +6.6, PJ +7.8, Delon +8.0.

If Carroll was absolute trash, there were more than a few not much fucking better.

[Maury]

Carroll was +1.0 after the trade. JV was +0.9, Norm +2.4, Ibaka +3.3, Poeltl +4.1, DD +4.2 .

Patterson's +5.0 was also the team's Net RTG after the trade.

Corey was +6.6, PJ +7.8, Delon +8.0.

If Carroll was absolute trash, there were more than a few not much fucking better.

+/- isn't everything. Sure he played a bit better defensively but he was never able to hit a shot and he still couldn't defend the other team's best player. Not usually an advocate for the eye test but in this case it's more than enough. Couldn't hit shots, got blown by over and over again, ruined possessions whenever he tried to take more than 1 dribble etc.

[tDotted]

Carroll was +1.0 after the trade. JV was +0.9, Norm +2.4, Ibaka +3.3, Poeltl +4.1, DD +4.2 .

Patterson's +5.0 was also the team's Net RTG after the trade.

Corey was +6.6, PJ +7.8, Delon +8.0.

If Carroll was absolute trash, there were more than a few not much fucking better.

Holy mackerel, talk about grasping at straws. The man averaged 6 and a half points on 35.6% shooting after the trade but you want to use a marginal +1.0 Net (which is entirely due to the players surrounding him) to try and prove that he wasn't absolutely trash. Oh boy

[3inthekeon]

+/- isn't everything. Sure he played a bit better defensively but he was never able to hit a shot and he still couldn't defend the other team's best player. Not usually an advocate for the eye test but in this case it's more than enough. Couldn't hit shots, got blown by over and over again, ruined possessions whenever he tried to take more than 1 dribble etc.

See this is why I posted. I don't like the guy. But he hit 33% open 3's, 35% wide open - both are substandard but not the "miss every time" people keep saying. He had a TS% of ,530. League average is .552 so he was substandard. But guys around him - Dirk .529, Jamaal Crawford .525, Rodney Hood .522. He was compared to Rasual Butler and his .398 TS% by someone.

If he was making league minimum, wasn't a starter and wasn't a locker room cancer, he would have been perfectly adequate.

[DanH]

See this is why I posted. I don't like the guy. But he hit 33% open 3's, 35% wide open - both are substandard but not the "miss every time" people keep saying. He had a TS% of ,530. League average is .552 so he was substandard. But guys around him - Dirk .529, Jamaal Crawford .525, Rodney Hood .522. He was compared to Rasual Butler and his .398 TS% by someone.

If he was making league minimum, wasn't a starter and wasn't a locker room cancer, he would have been perfectly adequate.

His TS% post all star break was .488 and he shot 30% from 3. As a guy whose value and role on the team are primarily to shoot, that's basically zero value he's providing. Nevermind that efficiency from a guy who is supposed to just catch and shoot can't really be compared to guys who generate offence on their own.

I agree that he is no Rasual Butler. But that's an incredibly (almost unfathomably) low bar.

[Maury]

See this is why I posted. I don't like the guy. But he hit 33% open 3's, 35% wide open - both are substandard but not the "miss every time" people keep saying. He had a TS% of ,530. League average is .552 so he was substandard. But guys around him - Dirk .529, Jamaal Crawford .525, Rodney Hood .522. He was compared to Rasual Butler and his .398 TS% by someone.

If he was making league minimum, wasn't a starter and wasn't a locker room cancer, he would have been perfectly adequate.

That was obviously exaggeration. What bolstered his percentages after the trade were the couple good shooting games he had. He often went 0/4 or 1/5 but would have a 2/3 day too which balanced out his percentages. He really did miss every important shot last year save the one he hit against the hornets before the all star break.

[psrs1]

Who was a worse starting SF for us, Demarre Carroll of Rasual Butler?

Butler by a mile. He was brutal.

[tDotted]

That was obviously exaggeration. What bolstered his percentages after the trade were the couple good shooting games he had. He often went 0/4 or 1/5 but would have a 2/3 day too which balanced out his percentages. He really did miss every important shot last year save the one he hit against the hornets before the all star break.

Yep.

Neat-o stat of the night; DeMarre Carroll had the 2nd most games without a 3 pointer made in the league (at least three 3PA) only behind Kaminsky. For a player who has 2 allstars taking attention away from him and shoots 58% of his total field goal attempts from 3, that's uhh (how do I put this..) fucking terrible.

[The Great One]

People actually defending Carroll?

[Raptorsnz]

People actually defending Carroll?

Ironic that people are defending him when he couldn't defend anyone else.

[golden]

lol. This thread has turned into a Demarre Carroll slag-fest, which I fully endorse; however, there was one specific comment he made in one of the articles that actually had some merit as it relates to the Raps offense.

Carroll talked about how one of his strengths is cutting to the rim off the ball. I always wondered why the Raps run so few cutters? It keeps the opposition defense honest and it's easy points when it works. I suspect it has something to do with keeping the driving lanes and paint area open for DeRozan as a first priority.

There was one 2-game stretch after Lowry got injured where the team was really looking for Carroll cutting to the basket to go along with some overall great ball movement and decision making by DeRozan. Beautiful stuff. I thought that was going to be a turning point for the team, in terms of style of play heading into the playoffs. But no......

[S.R.]

lol. This thread has turned into a Demarre Carroll slag-fest, which I fully endorse; however, there was one specific comment he made in one of the articles that actually had some merit as it relates to the Raps offense.

Carroll talked about how one of his strengths is cutting to the rim off the ball. I always wondered why the Raps run so few cutters? It keeps the opposition defense honest and it's easy points when it works. I suspect it has something to do with keeping the driving lanes and paint area open for DeRozan as a first priority.

There was one 2-game stretch after Lowry got injured where the team was really looking for Carroll cutting to the basket to go along with some overall great ball movement and decision making by DeRozan. Beautiful stuff. I thought that was going to be a turning point for the team, in terms of style of play heading into the playoffs. But no......

There's a chicken and egg element with hitting cutters and bigs on the roll & this team. Remember Calderon hitting Landry Fields for layups at the rim on backdoor cuts? Hitting Amir at the rim for layups on the roll? This team has always failed to get some of those easy baskets you get from player movement, do they do it because the coach doesn't ask them to or does the coach leave it out because he doesn't think his players are great at it? Casey got mocked for his "we don't have passers" comments, I think he was talking about these kinds of plays. He doesn't have guards who consistently make those passes, so he runs an offence tailored to his best guards' strengths and more or less just leaves that stuff out of it. I think if he had a guard with Calderon's vision + passing skills, we'd see more of those plays.

But yeah, the offence seems very all or nothing, you'd think the team could fit in more movement in spite of all the above comments. Drives me nuts when JV is posting up and nobody moves. When DeMar is holding the ball on the perimeter, does he want guys cutting through the key? He's fairly methodical and seems to me he might prefer guys standing in place so he can go to work.

[grindhouse]

Anyone who plays organised basketball knows the purpose of the sport is to get easy baskets that's what play are meant to do. We play street ball. I want the streetball, small ball shit out of Toronto so bad but we doubled down and paid street ballers hundreds of millions of dollars. So I guess I got to wait till these fools retire