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  • planetmars
    replied
    Middleton has an all-star nod, Pascal does not. So Middleton is not quite Pascal's floor. But yeah, it's a good contract. 4 years, no options with a tough stipulation to get the 30% cap hit. I think it's a solid deal. Pascal could have given back something, but no player is doing that anymore. From Grange's article, Pascal's camp wanted a player option in that 4th year and ended up caving.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Guys, I even pushed for the Raptors trying to get him a couple million below max just to try to free up a little wiggle room in 2021, and still this is a perfectly fine deal. They did well to avoid the player option in the 4th year (that's what I proposed offering to get the sub-max deal) and also got him to up the requirements on the 30% max from all-NBA to top two all-NBA teams, which is a much higher bar and likely protects them from that higher salary unless he makes the leap to true superstar.

    But golden, there is a) no way Pascal wouldn't have gotten a max offer next summer (3 years + PO). Even if he stumbled this year in a primary role. Max contracts are not just for primary options, and he's already proved himself a top notch second option scorer and defender. And b) basically no way he isn't already worth that salary. There is basically only upside to this deal. In all likelihood he out-earns it. Hield and Brown are not comparables (and there's a solid chance both end up getting max offers in FA anyway).
    Give some kudo's to Masai and Webster for throwing that stipulation into his contract. That's actually pretty awesome. I just assumed he'd get the 30% if he ended up on the 3rd team which is pretty doable. If the Raps exceed expectations and get first/second seed in the East the media may give the Raptors perceived best player (ie, Siakam) a nod. Second team is really tough.. especially at the forward spot. If he gets it, he's a top 10 player and worthy of that 30% max.


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  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be overly thrilled with a Chandler Parsons type max player on our roster. I mean I fully understand that the market places him somewhere between an Otto Porter and a Khris Middleton max... which is exactly what he got. Most people think those guys are seriously overpaid. I suppose everybody else on this board is happy with an Porter/Middleton outcome? Or maybe it's just because we have no choice because FAs don't want to come to Toronto, despite Masai's protestations, and guys won't even take a penny less to play here.
    i don't think there's any scenario where the outcome is that bad since he's already better than those guys. but i'm with KHD, i think he could establish himself in the top 15 over the course of the contract. hell he's already in the top 25, according to espn and SI (lol)
    Last edited by chris; Sun Oct 20th, 2019, 01:36 PM.

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  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    I totally get it GLF. The gamut of players who have extracted the max from the market is wide. From vastly overpaid to vastly underpaid. It's situational. You get what you can negotiate, not what you deserve.

    Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be overly thrilled with a Chandler Parsons type max player on our roster. I mean I fully understand that the market places him somewhere between an Otto Porter and a Khris Middleton max... which is exactly what he got. Most people think those guys are seriously overpaid. I suppose everybody else on this board is happy with an Porter/Middleton outcome? Or maybe it's just because we have no choice because FAs don't want to come to Toronto, despite Masai's protestations, and guys won't even take a penny less to play here.
    The point is that Porter/Middleton is Siakam's already established floor. So worst case we are paying market value for secondary talent (and still getting a positive return on investment - those guys are very good and worth that much to their teams, right now anyway). And of course there are miles of upside that doesn't exist for those two, and no real risk of decline like there is with Middleton (the term being the main reason people flinched at his deal).

    Seriously, the alternative was paying exactly this price next summer no matter how this year went, except probably with one less year of control, except in the scenario where Pascal turns out to be a complete lemon, in which case we are tanking for the next few years anyway.

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  • KHD
    replied
    i'm all in on siakam. to me he has top 10-15 player potential during that 5 year span. it's fair value at worst IMO.

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  • golden
    replied
    Maury wrote: View Post

    I would say he hasn't quite proved it, but at the same time, I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that he gets a max from someone next offseason regardless of whether he shows to be a true alpha dog in his first year as the main guy. That's his market value. As I said, he's a multipositional two way player with a very high ceiling on both ends with a relatively high floor on both ends as well. At worst he's a second guy on a championship team - we've seen that. At best, who knows? Maybe an MVP candidate someday? Maybe just a perennial all-star? Whatever it is, that's his market value and I don't even think one bad year will change that.

    All that being said, would you risk pissing him off just to wait? I don't think I would, and I think the fact that we got 4 years no options on either side is fair for both sides. He's earned the money and in today's culture of player first, it's good for him that he got his money on a team that he clearly wants to be on.
    Everybody really needs to cool it with the "second guy on a championship team" argument. Pascal had less than half of the playoff win shares of Kawhi. Let that sink in. Less than half. The only thing that line of debate proves is that anybody who gets a great deal from Masai should be sending a portion of their salary to Uncle Dennis' off-shore trust account.

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  • golden
    replied
    GLF wrote: View Post

    Exactly. Pascal has already proven he's worth the max lol. That's what Golden isn't getting. He doesn't have to prove he can be a number 1 option to be worth the max. What he did last year was already worth the max so if he stays the exact same (which I think is highly unlikely) he would still be worth the contract. And yea there is zero chance he wasn't going to get the max in the offseason even if he struggled with being the number 1 option this year
    I totally get it GLF. The gamut of players who have extracted the max from the market is wide. From vastly overpaid to vastly underpaid. It's situational. You get what you can negotiate, not what you deserve.

    Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be overly thrilled with a Chandler Parsons type max player on our roster. I mean I fully understand that the market places him somewhere between an Otto Porter and a Khris Middleton max... which is exactly what he got. Most people think those guys are seriously overpaid. I suppose everybody else on this board is happy with an Porter/Middleton outcome? Or maybe it's just because we have no choice because FAs don't want to come to Toronto, despite Masai's protestations, and guys won't even take a penny less to play here.

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  • Maury
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Not sure what you mean there, Maury.

    My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.

    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
    I would say he hasn't quite proved it, but at the same time, I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that he gets a max from someone next offseason regardless of whether he shows to be a true alpha dog in his first year as the main guy. That's his market value. As I said, he's a multipositional two way player with a very high ceiling on both ends with a relatively high floor on both ends as well. At worst he's a second guy on a championship team - we've seen that. At best, who knows? Maybe an MVP candidate someday? Maybe just a perennial all-star? Whatever it is, that's his market value and I don't even think one bad year will change that.

    All that being said, would you risk pissing him off just to wait? I don't think I would, and I think the fact that we got 4 years no options on either side is fair for both sides. He's earned the money and in today's culture of player first, it's good for him that he got his money on a team that he clearly wants to be on.

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  • GLF
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Guys, I even pushed for the Raptors trying to get him a couple million below max just to try to free up a little wiggle room in 2021, and still this is a perfectly fine deal. They did well to avoid the player option in the 4th year (that's what I proposed offering to get the sub-max deal) and also got him to up the requirements on the 30% max from all-NBA to top two all-NBA teams, which is a much higher bar and likely protects them from that higher salary unless he makes the leap to true superstar.

    But golden, there is a) no way Pascal wouldn't have gotten a max offer next summer (3 years + PO). Even if he stumbled this year in a primary role. Max contracts are not just for primary options, and he's already proved himself a top notch second option scorer and defender. And b) basically no way he isn't already worth that salary. There is basically only upside to this deal. In all likelihood he out-earns it. Hield and Brown are not comparables (and there's a solid chance both end up getting max offers in FA anyway).
    Exactly. Pascal has already proven he's worth the max lol. That's what Golden isn't getting. He doesn't have to prove he can be a number 1 option to be worth the max. What he did last year was already worth the max so if he stays the exact same (which I think is highly unlikely) he would still be worth the contract. And yea there is zero chance he wasn't going to get the max in the offseason even if he struggled with being the number 1 option this year

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  • DanH
    replied
    Guys, I even pushed for the Raptors trying to get him a couple million below max just to try to free up a little wiggle room in 2021, and still this is a perfectly fine deal. They did well to avoid the player option in the 4th year (that's what I proposed offering to get the sub-max deal) and also got him to up the requirements on the 30% max from all-NBA to top two all-NBA teams, which is a much higher bar and likely protects them from that higher salary unless he makes the leap to true superstar.

    But golden, there is a) no way Pascal wouldn't have gotten a max offer next summer (3 years + PO). Even if he stumbled this year in a primary role. Max contracts are not just for primary options, and he's already proved himself a top notch second option scorer and defender. And b) basically no way he isn't already worth that salary. There is basically only upside to this deal. In all likelihood he out-earns it. Hield and Brown are not comparables (and there's a solid chance both end up getting max offers in FA anyway).

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  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Remember “max player” can mean anything from Chandler Parsons to Lebron James. So from that POV, you’re right. Get whatever they’ll pay you.
    exactly, that's pretty much the point. to you max player means lebron james or some sort of franchise carrying player. to the rest of the league it just means core building block

    edit - especially when talking about rookie extensions

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  • golden
    replied
    bertarapsfan wrote: View Post

    You have to think of the message this send to future targets and Pascal. Pascal was getting this money this year or next. Masai knows that he is going to have a big pitch in 2021. In the last week he did right by his guys Kyle and Pascal, that sends a message to the 2021 class we win championships, we arn't afraid to make big moves and we take care of our guys. I believe Masai is conscious that a bad reputation of a GM not treating players right can be killer. I.E Ainge (AD wanted nothing to do with boston).
    Yeah, it feels more like a perception move here. I’m guessing that Masai was feeling a bit insecure after Kawhi left. His whole “change the narrative” about free agents not wanting to come to Toronto blew up pretty badly in his face. Even winning the chip and elevating Kawhi’s status in the league to new heights wasn’t enough to keep him.

    Lowry took advantage of our vulnerability by threatening to force a trade and I think Pascal’s team may have low key been exploiting our weakness as well.

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  • bertarapsfan
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Not sure what you mean there, Maury.

    My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.

    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
    You have to think of the message this send to future targets and Pascal. Pascal was getting this money this year or next. Masai knows that he is going to have a big pitch in 2021. In the last week he did right by his guys Kyle and Pascal, that sends a message to the 2021 class we win championships, we arn't afraid to make big moves and we take care of our guys. I believe Masai is conscious that a bad reputation of a GM not treating players right can be killer. I.E Ainge (AD wanted nothing to do with boston).

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  • golden
    replied
    chris wrote: View Post

    he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position
    Remember “max player” can mean anything from Chandler Parsons to Lebron James. So from that POV, you’re right. Get whatever they’ll pay you.

    But Pascal hasn’t proven anything over a full season without Kawhi, and that’s what he’s getting paid max for. He hasn’t even made an all-star team as a replacement in the East yet. It’s an unknown at this point.... a hope. We’re betting on that 17-5 sample size last year being no fluke, and on further improvement. It’s a dice roll, but I trust Masai.

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  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post


    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
    he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position

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