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  • LJ2
    replied
    inthepaint wrote: View Post

    The difference would be that on the Demar for Kawhi trade we were already at the top of the conference with ECF appearance and high reg season wins the years prior. Team was primed for a finals run. We're rebuilding now, so if we were to get a superstar here with Siakam as the trade centerpiece, we'd still be treading water.

    Team needs some time to develop and add value from within now. If anything the only Siakam move that would make sense is a for a solid young prospect, ballast, and 3 or 4 first round picks imo. That's what would golden state would have to cough up at minimum, but as usual, they probably want to have the cake and eat it too (like Philly at the trade deadline with Lowry). Sometimes you need to sacrifice some of the future to make a true title push now, but a lot of times teams want to have both it ways. So Siakam ain't going nowhere, they can salivate all they want.
    Agreed, they have to give this core a chance to see where it goes. Doubtful any Pascal move would be soon.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    If you are choosing between OG and Trent for your team, you choose OG every single time.
    Or better yet - you don't have to choose.

    Leave a comment:


  • inthepaint
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post

    If you trade Pascal it has to be for the final piece of the puzzle (DeMar for Kawhi), right?
    The difference would be that on the Demar for Kawhi trade we were already at the top of the conference with ECF appearance and high reg season wins the years prior. Team was primed for a finals run. We're rebuilding now, so if we were to get a superstar here with Siakam as the trade centerpiece, we'd still be treading water.

    Team needs some time to develop and add value from within now. If anything the only Siakam move that would make sense is a for a solid young prospect, ballast, and 3 or 4 first round picks imo. That's what would golden state would have to cough up at minimum, but as usual, they probably want to have the cake and eat it too (like Philly at the trade deadline with Lowry). Sometimes you need to sacrifice some of the future to make a true title push now, but a lot of times teams want to have both it ways. So Siakam ain't going nowhere, they can salivate all they want.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post

    Argh, working and posting, was bound to miss something. My mistake.

    Now I'm just putting it out there for conversation, but I think we both agree at some point down the line Barnes is very likely to be a starter. A lot could change between now and then, but if the core of this roster remains the same then the options for Barnes to replace in the starting line up are one of Trent Jr., OG, Siakam or Khem/Precious. I'm leaving FVV out because I just can't imagine Barnes performing full time PG duties.

    Unlikely that Barnes, OG or Pascal can man the Centre position full time, so that leaves us with Barnes potentially displacing Trent jr., OG or Pascal. Siakam is still our best player by a fair margin and we badly need his scoring so can't see him going any where.

    That leaves Trent jr. and OG and it comes down to who would compliment Barnes more of those two. Trent Jr. seems like more of a natural scorer and volume scorer to me, but like I said earlier, Golden provided some info which indicates that OG might be closer to that than I thought. Time will tell I suppose.
    If you are choosing between OG and Trent for your team, you choose OG every single time.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    At least this thread is getting some offseason-doldrums action!

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  • golden
    replied
    TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

    thats the other thing is if you move on from siakam moving on from fred makes sense too.
    Not really. Fred is our Udonis Haslem.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    S.R. wrote: View Post

    Yeah, on the one hand there's a core of players a couple years behind them. On the other hand it's not like you line up a team of 7 guys born in the same year, ever. I see more of management keeping their options open by keeping contracts as flexible as possible. All depends on what happens, how guys develop, how the team does, what offers come up, etc. They could hang onto these guys if things are going great. They could look to make moves if progress stalls or a great opportunity comes up. Basically what they've been doing to date. A bit different of a situation than if you have an Embiid or a Giannis on the roster, for sure.
    If you trade Pascal it has to be for the final piece of the puzzle (DeMar for Kawhi), right?

    Leave a comment:


  • S.R.
    replied
    TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

    thats the other thing is if you move on from siakam moving on from fred makes sense too.
    Yeah, on the one hand there's a core of players a couple years behind them. On the other hand it's not like you line up a team of 7 guys born in the same year, ever. I see more of management keeping their options open by keeping contracts as flexible as possible. All depends on what happens, how guys develop, how the team does, what offers come up, etc. They could hang onto these guys if things are going great. They could look to make moves if progress stalls or a great opportunity comes up. Basically what they've been doing to date. A bit different of a situation than if you have an Embiid or a Giannis on the roster, for sure.

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  • TrueTorontoFan
    replied
    S.R. wrote: View Post

    The smoke is that other teams want him because he's very good. And whereas reports a couple years ago were that Siakam and OG were absolutely off limits in any trade talk, I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think management listens to these calls. But the desire to make a move is not coming from the Raptors or Siakam. So nothing's happening unless a team calls up with the next Kawhi trade. So nothing's happening.

    In the meantime, there's a massive feedback loop in the NBA trade rumour machine on social media now. It's 99% BS or links to pure speculation pieces (in cases where an actual journalist is involved instead of @NBACentral6969 doing random jersey swaps) eg "you know who would look great on the Warriors? Siakam!"

    That's all I'm seeing this summer. It doesn't make any sense to move on from Fred and Siakam right now. These guys will both be pushing for All-Star spots if the Raptors are actually playing from home this season.
    thats the other thing is if you move on from siakam moving on from fred makes sense too.

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  • TrueTorontoFan
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

    So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?


    ohhhh lowercase tweet does it I was trying to post that but it didn't work

    Leave a comment:


  • S.R.
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

    So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?


    The smoke is that other teams want him because he's very good. And whereas reports a couple years ago were that Siakam and OG were absolutely off limits in any trade talk, I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think management listens to these calls. But the desire to make a move is not coming from the Raptors or Siakam. So nothing's happening unless a team calls up with the next Kawhi trade. So nothing's happening.

    In the meantime, there's a massive feedback loop in the NBA trade rumour machine on social media now. It's 99% BS or links to pure speculation pieces (in cases where an actual journalist is involved instead of @NBACentral6969 doing random jersey swaps) eg "you know who would look great on the Warriors? Siakam!"

    That's all I'm seeing this summer. It doesn't make any sense to move on from Fred and Siakam right now. These guys will both be pushing for All-Star spots if the Raptors are actually playing from home this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

    I think if this happened you run into other roster balance issues because who starts etc etc etc....


    Wiseman hasn't shown much that would work with our team. If we are complaining about center minutes last year what will happen if we have wiseman here. Wiseman also isn't cheap. His contract is 10 million and his production isn't great. He has a lot of growing to do from the basketball IQ department to fit what we ask for from our centers. Even if he isn't a stretch 5. He struggled with simple DHO actions and he has trouble making fast decisions. This isn't a situation where he is mobley so yeah he struggles because he is skinny but his IQ is there so you can wait. This is something that may never develop or at least not for 5 years. Feel is harder to build because you need to have reps at certain levels ... you need to be REALLY invested in film study too and even if you are its tough. Not calling him a bust but... right now he looks 2 years away from being 1 year a way.


    I would LOVE Kuminga. I think Kuminga and Barnes, and OG or Siakam would be REALLY cool on this team. Kuminga to me looks like he will eventually be able to play shooting guard. I like his game. Similar to Barnes in the sense that he shows lots of potential has an NBA body and can clearly impose his will. Raw offensively but a bit more.... flashy/fancy than Barnes in his willingness to try out funky stuff. Barnes is more into honing the basics which is good as well. Whereas Kuminga needs to focus a bit more on the basics but tries fancy moves. They would make a great tandem if it happened. That said, you are then pushing your contention window back EVEN further.

    We are already a young team and we are a young team that can pivot in either direction. It's just people want a move NOW. Like every trade deadline people complain MASAI SLEEP AT THE WHEEL. Sometimes I agree but not always. It doesn't always have to be the Bryan Colangelo big massive trade swing every single deadline. Sometimes its moves at the fringe that make a massive massive difference.


    If we performed last year under normal circumstances I would say sure. This would be a massive move backwards. Getting Barnes means we got LUCKY and moved up and got our lottery pick so no need to keep collecting those hinky style.

    Again with no veteran leadership on this team watch the quality of play fall off so fast. Realistically we have a good balanced team from an age stand point and overall stand point. The older guys are all on contracts that align and the guys we aren't sure of are on much shorter term deals that allow us to pivot. If you get a guy who looks amazing you will see us sign them to a longer deal.


    Also Wiggins was better last year and played great on team Canada but I don't believe that he would help us and would also be bad from a contract standpoint for another two years. If we wanted to go in that direction we may as well have just traded siakam for Kevin Love and gotten Mobley and Barnes or Mobley and Suggs.



    EDIT:
    Also if I am golden state I wouldn't do that... because you are trading your future away.. you just bought equity with the championships.... they have a massive bill coming up they gotta pay draymond or let him go. I would keep him but that will be tough to swallow that pill.

    Then in 3 years from now Steph will still be Steph.. but Klay will definitely be on the decline. Draymond's style of play will be useful but his body already has trouble staying healthy and on the court .... so who will they have if they trade all their picks. Right now they are built to compete assuming Klay is able to get back to form by seasons end. They just need to stay in the middle of the pack and they are good enough to do it. Moody is NBA ready as a contributor. Kuminga will show flashes but isn't ready for prime time yet but the following year he will be but again 2-3 year project. 2-3 years when Klay is on the decline you have a rising star to go with your aging guys. I don't see why they don't keep it.


    Also tax bill wise it doesn't make sense.

    Lastly some people mention ego... why would someone want to go to a place where its not your town not your team if you have an ego. That doesn't make much sense.
    ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

    So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?



    Leave a comment:


  • TrueTorontoFan
    replied
    Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post
    Wish they took the gs offer. Kuminga/moody/wiggins and wiseman wudda been a steal. Heard the offers still there minus moody 😞
    I think if this happened you run into other roster balance issues because who starts etc etc etc....


    Wiseman hasn't shown much that would work with our team. If we are complaining about center minutes last year what will happen if we have wiseman here. Wiseman also isn't cheap. His contract is 10 million and his production isn't great. He has a lot of growing to do from the basketball IQ department to fit what we ask for from our centers. Even if he isn't a stretch 5. He struggled with simple DHO actions and he has trouble making fast decisions. This isn't a situation where he is mobley so yeah he struggles because he is skinny but his IQ is there so you can wait. This is something that may never develop or at least not for 5 years. Feel is harder to build because you need to have reps at certain levels ... you need to be REALLY invested in film study too and even if you are its tough. Not calling him a bust but... right now he looks 2 years away from being 1 year a way.


    I would LOVE Kuminga. I think Kuminga and Barnes, and OG or Siakam would be REALLY cool on this team. Kuminga to me looks like he will eventually be able to play shooting guard. I like his game. Similar to Barnes in the sense that he shows lots of potential has an NBA body and can clearly impose his will. Raw offensively but a bit more.... flashy/fancy than Barnes in his willingness to try out funky stuff. Barnes is more into honing the basics which is good as well. Whereas Kuminga needs to focus a bit more on the basics but tries fancy moves. They would make a great tandem if it happened. That said, you are then pushing your contention window back EVEN further.

    We are already a young team and we are a young team that can pivot in either direction. It's just people want a move NOW. Like every trade deadline people complain MASAI SLEEP AT THE WHEEL. Sometimes I agree but not always. It doesn't always have to be the Bryan Colangelo big massive trade swing every single deadline. Sometimes its moves at the fringe that make a massive massive difference.


    If we performed last year under normal circumstances I would say sure. This would be a massive move backwards. Getting Barnes means we got LUCKY and moved up and got our lottery pick so no need to keep collecting those hinky style.

    Again with no veteran leadership on this team watch the quality of play fall off so fast. Realistically we have a good balanced team from an age stand point and overall stand point. The older guys are all on contracts that align and the guys we aren't sure of are on much shorter term deals that allow us to pivot. If you get a guy who looks amazing you will see us sign them to a longer deal.


    Also Wiggins was better last year and played great on team Canada but I don't believe that he would help us and would also be bad from a contract standpoint for another two years. If we wanted to go in that direction we may as well have just traded siakam for Kevin Love and gotten Mobley and Barnes or Mobley and Suggs.



    EDIT:
    Also if I am golden state I wouldn't do that... because you are trading your future away.. you just bought equity with the championships.... they have a massive bill coming up they gotta pay draymond or let him go. I would keep him but that will be tough to swallow that pill.

    Then in 3 years from now Steph will still be Steph.. but Klay will definitely be on the decline. Draymond's style of play will be useful but his body already has trouble staying healthy and on the court .... so who will they have if they trade all their picks. Right now they are built to compete assuming Klay is able to get back to form by seasons end. They just need to stay in the middle of the pack and they are good enough to do it. Moody is NBA ready as a contributor. Kuminga will show flashes but isn't ready for prime time yet but the following year he will be but again 2-3 year project. 2-3 years when Klay is on the decline you have a rising star to go with your aging guys. I don't see why they don't keep it.


    Also tax bill wise it doesn't make sense.

    Lastly some people mention ego... why would someone want to go to a place where its not your town not your team if you have an ego. That doesn't make much sense.
    Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Fri Aug 27, 2021, 09:26 AM.

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  • LJ2
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    Right... here?



    My point is that OG's ability to play a lower usage offensive role, specifically his ability to slot in primarily as a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands to succeed, makes him a perfect player to slot beside Barnes, who projects to need to be involved in primary actions early on in his career to avoid shrinking the floor when he is out there.
    Argh, working and posting, was bound to miss something. My mistake.

    Now I'm just putting it out there for conversation, but I think we both agree at some point down the line Barnes is very likely to be a starter. A lot could change between now and then, but if the core of this roster remains the same then the options for Barnes to replace in the starting line up are one of Trent Jr., OG, Siakam or Khem/Precious. I'm leaving FVV out because I just can't imagine Barnes performing full time PG duties.

    Unlikely that Barnes, OG or Pascal can man the Centre position full time, so that leaves us with Barnes potentially displacing Trent jr., OG or Pascal. Siakam is still our best player by a fair margin and we badly need his scoring so can't see him going any where.

    That leaves Trent jr. and OG and it comes down to who would compliment Barnes more of those two. Trent Jr. seems like more of a natural scorer and volume scorer to me, but like I said earlier, Golden provided some info which indicates that OG might be closer to that than I thought. Time will tell I suppose.

    Leave a comment:


  • TrueTorontoFan
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    It's just roster composition. So who's coming off the bench? Who's not playing in crunch time? Trent Jr? FVV? Birch? Achiuawa? The three guys can play at the same time, but it means at least one typical starter isn't going to start in the near future or be out there in crunch time.

    You go with the 5 that gives you a best chance to win. But if one of our crew has to come off the bench and be a 6th man type of player, well that guy might want to get traded. Egos have to be managed at the end of the day.


    realistically trent will probably coming off the bench eventually if any of scottie breaks out . Right now Trent didn't show enough in my opinion to warrant playoff 4th quarter crunch time. He froze out his teammates at times and just chucked up shots. I am not saying he doesn't have potential because if you look at his thread you will see I totally believe that he can do better but I have yet to see it. He looks like a young norm so lets see in 2 years what it looks like. People are stuck on the first few games he came here and exploded after his second game but then showed major regressions on his shooting splits. Birch right now is a starter but I could see Achiuawa out play him but that needs to happen first so lets temper those expectations. FVV will be out there in crunch time if he is healthy. He is your leader, he spread the floor, as does OG. If siakam can get back to a decent clip from 3 I don't see whyw it won't work?


    Ego's tend to have to be managed closer to contract negotiations. Everyone is locked up and frankly they seem to want to get back to winning. Birch was just a bench player so He won't have an attitude if he is getting consistent minutes. Not playing in a closing line up doesn't mean you aren't getting your minutes. So I don't get this take. Ultimately its match up dependent. But we potentially have a massive athletic defensive line up that very few teams can match up against overall in terms of size so why not. I don't think you roll out your closing line up all the time but you save it for the play offs but you will see flashes of it as nurse likes to tinker game to game with random lines ups.


    Also no offense to Barnes but he has a LONG way to go offensively before he is outplaying Siakam or OG. Either that is people overrating Barnes at this point or under rating the other two. Like the guy hasn't even played an NBA minute. This reminds me of in preseason last year where everyone was suggesting we trade FVV ASAP because Flynn had a few good games. This is a game of patience but it is also a new type of basketball team we are trying to experiment with. You let the experiment run its course then you draw conclusions. FAR too early. That is why we didn't get Suggs ... we wanted to go in a different basketball direction and be ahead of the curve.
    Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Fri Aug 27, 2021, 09:08 AM.

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