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  • LJ2 wrote: View Post

    Didn't realize he had such a high usage, but having said that the last two months of this past season probably is not the best place to draw conclusions from. Tanking, starters in an out (felt like mostly out) of the line up, etc.
    But, I don't understand your suggestion that Barnes and OG would not be complementary. To this point, OG has succeeded in every usage role he's had (with some poor results off the bench when he had to self-create a bit, but promising results towards the end of last season), but especially and in the biggest sample as a low usage floor spacer. His three point shooting per minute is not all that different from Trent's, though admittedly a little lower (6.6 attempts per 36 vs 8.3), and he actually takes a higher proportion of his shots from outside the arc compared to Trent (50% vs 47% last year).

    Barnes never projects to be that sort of off ball player. He's a playmaker if he's anything on offence, so he'd be used as a roll man to play 4-on-3 at the very least and potentially as a PnR ballhandler, floor spacer last of all, and if anything may need a higher usage role (off the bench or ideally in Pascal's place while he is out) early like they forced RHJ into to keep the defence paying attention to him. Then his fit with the core will depend more on his fit beside Pascal than his fit beside OG, and that all comes down to how both players' jumpers develop. If Pascal can return to long distance form, the fit may be there early, otherwise it may require some patience until Scottie can develop a stand still jumper.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • LJ2 wrote: View Post

      Didn't realize he had such a high usage, but having said that the last two months of this past season probably is not the best place to draw conclusions from. Tanking, starters in an out (felt like mostly out) of the line up, etc.
      OG also sat out most of the May tank, so his last 2 months were really just March & April. But even so, you could also suggest overall chaos of last season makes OG's increase in USG without dropping in efficiency, look even more impressive. It shows an ability to keep improving despite the adversity.

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      • golden wrote: View Post

        OG also sat out most of the May tank, so his last 2 months were really just March & April. But even so, you could also suggest overall chaos of last season makes OG's increase in USG without dropping in efficiency, look even more impressive. It shows an ability to keep improving despite the adversity.
        He's still developing and Masai (I believe) was quoted somewhere recently saying OG has another level. Even saw a video on insta the other day of OG working on his handles...possible new dimension to his game which Masai was referring to.

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        • DanH wrote: View Post

          But, I don't understand your suggestion that Barnes and OG would not be complementary. To this point, OG has succeeded in every usage role he's had (with some poor results off the bench when he had to self-create a bit, but promising results towards the end of last season), but especially and in the biggest sample as a low usage floor spacer. His three point shooting per minute is not all that different from Trent's, though admittedly a little lower (6.6 attempts per 36 vs 8.3), and he actually takes a higher proportion of his shots from outside the arc compared to Trent (50% vs 47% last year).

          Barnes never projects to be that sort of off ball player. He's a playmaker if he's anything on offence, so he'd be used as a roll man to play 4-on-3 at the very least and potentially as a PnR ballhandler, floor spacer last of all, and if anything may need a higher usage role (off the bench or ideally in Pascal's place while he is out) early like they forced RHJ into to keep the defence paying attention to him. Then his fit with the core will depend more on his fit beside Pascal than his fit beside OG, and that all comes down to how both players' jumpers develop. If Pascal can return to long distance form, the fit may be there early, otherwise it may require some patience until Scottie can develop a stand still jumper.
          Hmmm, well I'm stumped on where I may have suggested that Barnes and OG would not be complementary, but certainly didn't meant to relay that message. I did suggest that OG's usage on offense is low/an after thought, but Golden provided some numbers suggesting OG is a bigger part of the offense than I thought. My thinking was that Trent, seemingly more of a volume shooter, would be the better compliment for Barnes.

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          • DanH wrote: View Post

            The past two seasons? You mean the bubble and last season, yes? If you mean the 19-20 regular season, I question your ability to judge a player's performance. He made 2nd team all-NBA that year.

            If he was fundamentally unable to perform under pressure that would have shown when he combined with Kawhi to be one of the highest scoring playoff duos of all time.
            It seems you equate any kind of Adversity being equal

            He may have responded well under the lights of a playoff series when the main focus was NOT on him being surrounded by Kawhi, your boy who earned his minutes Gasol, Serge, Kyle, Green and tough as nails Mr. Van Vleet

            Way Different when some of the cushion that wrapped him the season before were no longer there

            NO?
            You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

            When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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            • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

              It seems you equate any kind of Adversity being equal

              He may have responded well under the lights of a playoff series when the main focus was NOT on him being surrounded by Kawhi, your boy who earned his minutes Gasol, Serge, Kyle, Green and tough as nails Mr. Van Vleet

              Way Different when some of the cushion that wrapped him the season before were no longer there

              NO?
              Again, I point you to the 2019-20 campaign when Kawhi was gone and Siakam performed well enough to earn an all-NBA nod. It was only when the extremely weird circumstances of the bubble and the COVID season came along that he struggled. Why would we attribute those struggles to generally being unable to perform under pressure when we have loads of evidence he is quite capable of that, when we have blindingly obvious reasons why he might have struggled practically slapping us in the face?
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                Hmmm, well I'm stumped on where I may have suggested that Barnes and OG would not be complementary, but certainly didn't meant to relay that message. I did suggest that OG's usage on offense is low/an after thought, but Golden provided some numbers suggesting OG is a bigger part of the offense than I thought. My thinking was that Trent, seemingly more of a volume shooter, would be the better compliment for Barnes.
                Right... here?

                LJ2 wrote: View Post

                The comparison for me between OG and Barnes on offense is just spot up shooting is normally the first thing players work on so if all goes well that is what Barnes will learn to do first. Obviously Barnes projects to give you a bunch of other things on offense which OG doesn't.

                OG just seems like such an after thought on offense it's hard to picture him as being complimentary on that end of the floor. He's not a volume shooter like what Trent Jr. projects to be for example. Could be a big year for OG too, if his usage increases.
                My point is that OG's ability to play a lower usage offensive role, specifically his ability to slot in primarily as a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands to succeed, makes him a perfect player to slot beside Barnes, who projects to need to be involved in primary actions early on in his career to avoid shrinking the floor when he is out there.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • Siakam's agent:

                  https://twitter.com/SiriusXMNBA/stat...trade-talks%2F
                  Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Fri Aug 27, 2021, 09:55 AM.

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                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                    That is likely the starting unit though I think Precious will be given an opportunity to earn the starting C spot in training camp.

                    I think eventually it would be one of OG or Pascal that would need to be moved to make room for Scottie in the starting line up. Not this season but when/if Scottie starts to outplay one of those guys.
                    Still don't get this take ... why can't they play together? Let's say Scottie really grows offensively along with OG and Pascal. Why can't that be your 2-3-4, or 3,4,5. Or do different line up combinations. I honestly don't understand why many people are in a rush to move it.

                    OG and Pascal when they are both healthy are a great defensive tandem and started to grow offensively as well. The whole point of moving towards positionless is you aren't fitting guys at specified spots. They may have roles but yeah. OG isn't a lead ball handler or a lead decision maker. Pascal is closer to that MAYBE Scottie turns into that or remains as a secondary play maker but why are we moving them. Also if you move anyone it will sadly likely be PAscal because of age but yeah.

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                    • planetmars wrote: View Post

                      It's just roster composition. So who's coming off the bench? Who's not playing in crunch time? Trent Jr? FVV? Birch? Achiuawa? The three guys can play at the same time, but it means at least one typical starter isn't going to start in the near future or be out there in crunch time.

                      You go with the 5 that gives you a best chance to win. But if one of our crew has to come off the bench and be a 6th man type of player, well that guy might want to get traded. Egos have to be managed at the end of the day.


                      realistically trent will probably coming off the bench eventually if any of scottie breaks out . Right now Trent didn't show enough in my opinion to warrant playoff 4th quarter crunch time. He froze out his teammates at times and just chucked up shots. I am not saying he doesn't have potential because if you look at his thread you will see I totally believe that he can do better but I have yet to see it. He looks like a young norm so lets see in 2 years what it looks like. People are stuck on the first few games he came here and exploded after his second game but then showed major regressions on his shooting splits. Birch right now is a starter but I could see Achiuawa out play him but that needs to happen first so lets temper those expectations. FVV will be out there in crunch time if he is healthy. He is your leader, he spread the floor, as does OG. If siakam can get back to a decent clip from 3 I don't see whyw it won't work?


                      Ego's tend to have to be managed closer to contract negotiations. Everyone is locked up and frankly they seem to want to get back to winning. Birch was just a bench player so He won't have an attitude if he is getting consistent minutes. Not playing in a closing line up doesn't mean you aren't getting your minutes. So I don't get this take. Ultimately its match up dependent. But we potentially have a massive athletic defensive line up that very few teams can match up against overall in terms of size so why not. I don't think you roll out your closing line up all the time but you save it for the play offs but you will see flashes of it as nurse likes to tinker game to game with random lines ups.


                      Also no offense to Barnes but he has a LONG way to go offensively before he is outplaying Siakam or OG. Either that is people overrating Barnes at this point or under rating the other two. Like the guy hasn't even played an NBA minute. This reminds me of in preseason last year where everyone was suggesting we trade FVV ASAP because Flynn had a few good games. This is a game of patience but it is also a new type of basketball team we are trying to experiment with. You let the experiment run its course then you draw conclusions. FAR too early. That is why we didn't get Suggs ... we wanted to go in a different basketball direction and be ahead of the curve.
                      Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Fri Aug 27, 2021, 10:08 AM.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post

                        Right... here?



                        My point is that OG's ability to play a lower usage offensive role, specifically his ability to slot in primarily as a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands to succeed, makes him a perfect player to slot beside Barnes, who projects to need to be involved in primary actions early on in his career to avoid shrinking the floor when he is out there.
                        Argh, working and posting, was bound to miss something. My mistake.

                        Now I'm just putting it out there for conversation, but I think we both agree at some point down the line Barnes is very likely to be a starter. A lot could change between now and then, but if the core of this roster remains the same then the options for Barnes to replace in the starting line up are one of Trent Jr., OG, Siakam or Khem/Precious. I'm leaving FVV out because I just can't imagine Barnes performing full time PG duties.

                        Unlikely that Barnes, OG or Pascal can man the Centre position full time, so that leaves us with Barnes potentially displacing Trent jr., OG or Pascal. Siakam is still our best player by a fair margin and we badly need his scoring so can't see him going any where.

                        That leaves Trent jr. and OG and it comes down to who would compliment Barnes more of those two. Trent Jr. seems like more of a natural scorer and volume scorer to me, but like I said earlier, Golden provided some info which indicates that OG might be closer to that than I thought. Time will tell I suppose.

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                        • Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post
                          Wish they took the gs offer. Kuminga/moody/wiggins and wiseman wudda been a steal. Heard the offers still there minus moody 😞
                          I think if this happened you run into other roster balance issues because who starts etc etc etc....


                          Wiseman hasn't shown much that would work with our team. If we are complaining about center minutes last year what will happen if we have wiseman here. Wiseman also isn't cheap. His contract is 10 million and his production isn't great. He has a lot of growing to do from the basketball IQ department to fit what we ask for from our centers. Even if he isn't a stretch 5. He struggled with simple DHO actions and he has trouble making fast decisions. This isn't a situation where he is mobley so yeah he struggles because he is skinny but his IQ is there so you can wait. This is something that may never develop or at least not for 5 years. Feel is harder to build because you need to have reps at certain levels ... you need to be REALLY invested in film study too and even if you are its tough. Not calling him a bust but... right now he looks 2 years away from being 1 year a way.


                          I would LOVE Kuminga. I think Kuminga and Barnes, and OG or Siakam would be REALLY cool on this team. Kuminga to me looks like he will eventually be able to play shooting guard. I like his game. Similar to Barnes in the sense that he shows lots of potential has an NBA body and can clearly impose his will. Raw offensively but a bit more.... flashy/fancy than Barnes in his willingness to try out funky stuff. Barnes is more into honing the basics which is good as well. Whereas Kuminga needs to focus a bit more on the basics but tries fancy moves. They would make a great tandem if it happened. That said, you are then pushing your contention window back EVEN further.

                          We are already a young team and we are a young team that can pivot in either direction. It's just people want a move NOW. Like every trade deadline people complain MASAI SLEEP AT THE WHEEL. Sometimes I agree but not always. It doesn't always have to be the Bryan Colangelo big massive trade swing every single deadline. Sometimes its moves at the fringe that make a massive massive difference.


                          If we performed last year under normal circumstances I would say sure. This would be a massive move backwards. Getting Barnes means we got LUCKY and moved up and got our lottery pick so no need to keep collecting those hinky style.

                          Again with no veteran leadership on this team watch the quality of play fall off so fast. Realistically we have a good balanced team from an age stand point and overall stand point. The older guys are all on contracts that align and the guys we aren't sure of are on much shorter term deals that allow us to pivot. If you get a guy who looks amazing you will see us sign them to a longer deal.


                          Also Wiggins was better last year and played great on team Canada but I don't believe that he would help us and would also be bad from a contract standpoint for another two years. If we wanted to go in that direction we may as well have just traded siakam for Kevin Love and gotten Mobley and Barnes or Mobley and Suggs.



                          EDIT:
                          Also if I am golden state I wouldn't do that... because you are trading your future away.. you just bought equity with the championships.... they have a massive bill coming up they gotta pay draymond or let him go. I would keep him but that will be tough to swallow that pill.

                          Then in 3 years from now Steph will still be Steph.. but Klay will definitely be on the decline. Draymond's style of play will be useful but his body already has trouble staying healthy and on the court .... so who will they have if they trade all their picks. Right now they are built to compete assuming Klay is able to get back to form by seasons end. They just need to stay in the middle of the pack and they are good enough to do it. Moody is NBA ready as a contributor. Kuminga will show flashes but isn't ready for prime time yet but the following year he will be but again 2-3 year project. 2-3 years when Klay is on the decline you have a rising star to go with your aging guys. I don't see why they don't keep it.


                          Also tax bill wise it doesn't make sense.

                          Lastly some people mention ego... why would someone want to go to a place where its not your town not your team if you have an ego. That doesn't make much sense.
                          Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Fri Aug 27, 2021, 10:26 AM.

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                          • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

                            I think if this happened you run into other roster balance issues because who starts etc etc etc....


                            Wiseman hasn't shown much that would work with our team. If we are complaining about center minutes last year what will happen if we have wiseman here. Wiseman also isn't cheap. His contract is 10 million and his production isn't great. He has a lot of growing to do from the basketball IQ department to fit what we ask for from our centers. Even if he isn't a stretch 5. He struggled with simple DHO actions and he has trouble making fast decisions. This isn't a situation where he is mobley so yeah he struggles because he is skinny but his IQ is there so you can wait. This is something that may never develop or at least not for 5 years. Feel is harder to build because you need to have reps at certain levels ... you need to be REALLY invested in film study too and even if you are its tough. Not calling him a bust but... right now he looks 2 years away from being 1 year a way.


                            I would LOVE Kuminga. I think Kuminga and Barnes, and OG or Siakam would be REALLY cool on this team. Kuminga to me looks like he will eventually be able to play shooting guard. I like his game. Similar to Barnes in the sense that he shows lots of potential has an NBA body and can clearly impose his will. Raw offensively but a bit more.... flashy/fancy than Barnes in his willingness to try out funky stuff. Barnes is more into honing the basics which is good as well. Whereas Kuminga needs to focus a bit more on the basics but tries fancy moves. They would make a great tandem if it happened. That said, you are then pushing your contention window back EVEN further.

                            We are already a young team and we are a young team that can pivot in either direction. It's just people want a move NOW. Like every trade deadline people complain MASAI SLEEP AT THE WHEEL. Sometimes I agree but not always. It doesn't always have to be the Bryan Colangelo big massive trade swing every single deadline. Sometimes its moves at the fringe that make a massive massive difference.


                            If we performed last year under normal circumstances I would say sure. This would be a massive move backwards. Getting Barnes means we got LUCKY and moved up and got our lottery pick so no need to keep collecting those hinky style.

                            Again with no veteran leadership on this team watch the quality of play fall off so fast. Realistically we have a good balanced team from an age stand point and overall stand point. The older guys are all on contracts that align and the guys we aren't sure of are on much shorter term deals that allow us to pivot. If you get a guy who looks amazing you will see us sign them to a longer deal.


                            Also Wiggins was better last year and played great on team Canada but I don't believe that he would help us and would also be bad from a contract standpoint for another two years. If we wanted to go in that direction we may as well have just traded siakam for Kevin Love and gotten Mobley and Barnes or Mobley and Suggs.



                            EDIT:
                            Also if I am golden state I wouldn't do that... because you are trading your future away.. you just bought equity with the championships.... they have a massive bill coming up they gotta pay draymond or let him go. I would keep him but that will be tough to swallow that pill.

                            Then in 3 years from now Steph will still be Steph.. but Klay will definitely be on the decline. Draymond's style of play will be useful but his body already has trouble staying healthy and on the court .... so who will they have if they trade all their picks. Right now they are built to compete assuming Klay is able to get back to form by seasons end. They just need to stay in the middle of the pack and they are good enough to do it. Moody is NBA ready as a contributor. Kuminga will show flashes but isn't ready for prime time yet but the following year he will be but again 2-3 year project. 2-3 years when Klay is on the decline you have a rising star to go with your aging guys. I don't see why they don't keep it.


                            Also tax bill wise it doesn't make sense.

                            Lastly some people mention ego... why would someone want to go to a place where its not your town not your team if you have an ego. That doesn't make much sense.
                            ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

                            So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?



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                            • golden wrote: View Post

                              ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

                              So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?


                              The smoke is that other teams want him because he's very good. And whereas reports a couple years ago were that Siakam and OG were absolutely off limits in any trade talk, I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think management listens to these calls. But the desire to make a move is not coming from the Raptors or Siakam. So nothing's happening unless a team calls up with the next Kawhi trade. So nothing's happening.

                              In the meantime, there's a massive feedback loop in the NBA trade rumour machine on social media now. It's 99% BS or links to pure speculation pieces (in cases where an actual journalist is involved instead of @NBACentral6969 doing random jersey swaps) eg "you know who would look great on the Warriors? Siakam!"

                              That's all I'm seeing this summer. It doesn't make any sense to move on from Fred and Siakam right now. These guys will both be pushing for All-Star spots if the Raptors are actually playing from home this season.
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                              • golden wrote: View Post

                                ^^^ Golden State is so thirsty for Siakam. IMO, it's pretty obvious the Pascal trade rumors are coming from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are calling Masai & Bobby 5 times a week. Apparently, Draymond/Curry/Klay told management that they don't have time to wait for rookies to develop. They have extreme urgency to win now. Siakam is the perfect fit... and they know first-hand what he can do in the playoffs.

                                So much Pascal trade smoke. Yet another tidbit yesterday. Where is the fire coming from?


                                ohhhh lowercase tweet does it I was trying to post that but it didn't work

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