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  • The Great One
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post

    He's right. Siakam is taking too many dumb fouls/frustration fouls, offensive fouls mostly because he's forcing things.

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  • The Great One
    replied
    G__Deane wrote: View Post

    Siakam is not going to outplay Giannis OR Davis for awhile. They're both top 10 players, but he can be better against them at least.
    Not outplay them. Just play like an all star.

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  • MixxAOR
    replied


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  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post

    Not sure I follow. So Nurse was trying to lose the game to teach Pascal a lesson? Or Nurse was willing to lose the game to try something that was bad in the short-term but good in the long-term but if it had worked it would have led to overconfidence, which is bad, but would have been good cause it was good overconfidence?

    Occam's Razor would seem the better explanation: Nurse thought Siakam was the best guy to guard Giannis, so he guarded him. The end.
    Not following you either, slaw. You just trying to pick a fight? Nurse was already quoted pre-game saying that multiple guys would get a shot at Giannis and he wasn’t going to hide/protect Pascal from that task, even though he felt he had obvious other options. You and that razor are dull in this case.

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  • G__Deane
    replied
    The Great One wrote: View Post
    Siakam failed his first big test(vs the Bucks). His next big test will be sunday against Davis and the Lakers.

    Dude needs to get his shit together and stay out of foul trouble every game.
    Siakam is not going to outplay Giannis OR Davis for awhile. They're both top 10 players, but he can be better against them at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • inthepaint
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    You kind of ended up talking yourself right out of your original position. lol. I would think that it's better to expose the flaws early and give players time them to correct them. If they beat the Bucks, then over confidence & complacency would surely set in, and we've seen it over the years. Over-confidence this early is a quick way to entrench bad habits and get guys not listening to the coach or continuing to work hard. It's a long season. Nurse is trying to push the idea that you raise your championship ceiling by having as many 2-way players as possible, and especially your franchise players and starters.
    lol so you're happy they lost to the Bucks then? I don't think anyone is getting overconfident/complacent on this team after what would've been just the 5th W on the regular season; they know it's a long and hard road to the playoffs, and they're eager to show they can be decent without Kawhi. They'd be just as hungry. They lost though, so they now have 2 L's vs the the better teams they faced (Celtics & Bucks), and will soon go on a west road trip where they'll play the 2 LA teams on a b2b, plus Portland and Dallas, making a 0-4 on this trip quite possible. Overconfidence is the least of their problems. If that happens, they and/or the fans will be questioning who they really are without Kawhi, and be wishing they at least had a W against a top East team.

    As for the Siakam approach, despite the long post I don't feel particularly strong one way or the other, which is why I opened and closed seeing the merit of what Nurse is doing. Matter of fact, if I'm in Nurse's position I'd be challenging Siakam too, he just got a max deal. I'd wait a little longer though and let his new offensive game breath a bit and see if it's real (rather than just one superstar game vs Detroit), but hey, different ways to skin a cat. Nick is seeing Siakam in practice, knows how driven he is, and knows how much can be on his plate. Siakam will be fine either way.
    Last edited by inthepaint; Mon Nov 4th, 2019, 06:09 PM.

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  • RaptorsVictim
    replied
    The idea of Pascal carrying this team on his shoulders must be abonded, not because Pascal is not qulified, but because it wont work out every night. I am very happy with what KL is doing, but his minutes scare me.
    Our main problem right now is : Powell and Gasol. Those two are not delvering on a regular base, and if this continues, Pascal will fail. We took the title last year, because every one was playing well, the team was palying well.
    Pascal will overcome the foul troubles and all those issues that are hindering him, but we as team must play well.

    Leave a comment:


  • slaw
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    You kind of ended up talking yourself right out of your original position. lol. I would think that it's better to expose the flaws early and give players time them to correct them. If they beat the Bucks, then over confidence & complacency would surely set in, and we've seen it over the years. Over-confidence this early is a quick way to entrench bad habits and get guys not listening to the coach or continuing to work hard. It's a long season. Nurse is trying to push the idea that you raise your championship ceiling by having as many 2-way players as possible, and especially your franchise players and starters.
    Not sure I follow. So Nurse was trying to lose the game to teach Pascal a lesson? Or Nurse was willing to lose the game to try something that was bad in the short-term but good in the long-term but if it had worked it would have led to overconfidence, which is bad, but would have been good cause it was good overconfidence?

    Occam's Razor would seem the better explanation: Nurse thought Siakam was the best guy to guard Giannis, so he guarded him. The end.

    Leave a comment:


  • S.R.
    replied
    In the end, it'll also be true that the Raptors don't have a Kawhi to close games right now. What Kawhi just did vs. Utah? The Raptors don't have that on the roster. It'll make a difference some games this year.

    Siakam is the guy they want to get there, on that end he needs to be available for the last 5 minutes of the game instead of fouled out. They need to make adjustments to keep him out of foul trouble imho, like assigning OG to Giannis as the primary defender. That would have been easy.

    But the Siakam/fouling thing is a work in progress too. That guy has to learn how to draw fouls better and has to avoid fouling better. It's all part of the process.

    This stuff is a multi-year process for most players. It's pretty unfair to expect Siakam & the team to just step in and fill the gaps left by Kawhi & Danny Green. They won't. Some nights we'll really notice it (not coincidentally, those nights so far have been against other projected top teams in Boston and Milwaukee).

    As long as everybody's moving in the right direction it'll be fine. I really want to see the ball in Siakam's hands more at the end of tight games. He needs the reps. Last year they just tossed the ball to Kawhi and everybody cleared out. This year we've got Fred etc. taking those shots. I don't think this team should be aiming for a "scoring by commitee" approach in the clutch, that doesn't get you to the top of the mountain. Let's see Siakam in ISO or the high p'n'r.

    Still a lot of games to play.

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  • golden
    replied
    inthepaint wrote: View Post

    Yep there's two ways to look at it, and see the merit on both. On one hand, part of the coach's job is to help develop growing players to their full potential, and that includes pushing the envelope and challenging them, putting them in situations they're not necessarily comfortable at. On the other hand, you also gotta put them in a position to succeed, and know when to kick up a notch on the complexity of the tasks, otherwise you run the risk of undermining their overall game.

    Siakam just recently 'discovered' he can be a pull-up 3pt shooter from the key (In his words, "I guess I'm a shooter now") as well having a whole host of new midrange moves, and postup ISO plays. These are budding skills that need in-game reps to really take root and mature, so he has the confidence to employ them when it matters. That will happen at a slower rate (or altogether thwarted) if every night you're exerting top physical and mental effort on the defensive, and getting into foul trouble because you also have to guard a physical MVP caliber player on the opposing team. So there's a benefit in balancing that out, especially when you also have another physical and quick defender on your team that can do that very well (OG).

    There's also the game itself. To me, if we had OG as Giannis' primary defender from the getgo, they don't dig themselves that 20pt whole out of the gate, Pascal stays on the floor longer getting himself in rhythm and doing damage on the offensive end, and we win that game (or at least make it a lot tougher). Doesn't mean you're gonna coddle him and hide him on D, he's more than capable on that end, put him on Giannis too sure, but balance it out and have someone else be the primary defender.

    Now maybe they see that as just 1 out of 82, but to me if they had taken a W on an early test like that against the mighty Bucks on the road, they come out feeling a lot more confident, Pascal included, and he would continue to become more-and-more confident and aggressive in his offensive game (while also knowing he can guard Giannis for streches). Instead what's on his mind now is meeting with refs to try to figure out how to keep himself out of foul trouble. Having said all that, maybe this is a step back to take 2 forward. If anything it shows Nick is really serious about pushing Siakam to quickly become the best he can be, and there's value on that too.
    You kind of ended up talking yourself right out of your original position. lol. I would think that it's better to expose the flaws early and give players time them to correct them. If they beat the Bucks, then over confidence & complacency would surely set in, and we've seen it over the years. Over-confidence this early is a quick way to entrench bad habits and get guys not listening to the coach or continuing to work hard. It's a long season. Nurse is trying to push the idea that you raise your championship ceiling by having as many 2-way players as possible, and especially your franchise players and starters.

    Leave a comment:


  • inthepaint
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post

    Yeah before Derozan was traded Nurse literally said that he will not try to hide Demar and force him to defend his position. It's the same thing with Siakam. Siakam needs to embrace this opportunity and learn how to be effective defender and not foul out.
    Yep there's two ways to look at it, and see the merit on both. On one hand, part of the coach's job is to help develop growing players to their full potential, and that includes pushing the envelope and challenging them, putting them in situations they're not necessarily comfortable at. On the other hand, you also gotta put them in a position to succeed, and know when to kick up a notch on the complexity of the tasks, otherwise you run the risk of undermining their overall game.

    Siakam just recently 'discovered' he can be a pull-up 3pt shooter from the key (In his words, "I guess I'm a shooter now") as well having a whole host of new midrange moves, and postup ISO plays. These are budding skills that need in-game reps to really take root and mature, so he has the confidence to employ them when it matters. That will happen at a slower rate (or altogether thwarted) if every night you're exerting top physical and mental effort on the defensive, and getting into foul trouble because you also have to guard a physical MVP caliber player on the opposing team. So there's a benefit in balancing that out, especially when you also have another physical and quick defender on your team that can do that very well (OG).

    There's also the game itself. To me, if we had OG as Giannis' primary defender from the getgo, they don't dig themselves that 20pt whole out of the gate, Pascal stays on the floor longer getting himself in rhythm and doing damage on the offensive end, and we win that game (or at least make it a lot tougher). Doesn't mean you're gonna coddle him and hide him on D, he's more than capable on that end, put him on Giannis too sure, but balance it out and have someone else be the primary defender.

    Now maybe they see that as just 1 out of 82, but to me if they had taken a W on an early test like that against the mighty Bucks on the road, they come out feeling a lot more confident, Pascal included, and he would continue to become more-and-more confident and aggressive in his offensive game (while also knowing he can guard Giannis for streches). Instead what's on his mind now is meeting with refs to try to figure out how to keep himself out of foul trouble. Having said all that, maybe this is a step back to take 2 forward. If anything it shows Nick is really serious about pushing Siakam to quickly become the best he can be, and there's value on that too.


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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied
    Pascal down below the rim got caught twice flatfooted while the opposing player (Bucks) cut to the basket for an easy layup/dunk. He also has the propensity of biting to a pump fake committing silly fouls (and 1). Blown-by in a few occasions by swifter guards. He gambles a lot on defense, reason why he is always in foul trouble.

    In my opinion, this is a good thing that Nurse is trying to expose Pascal’s flaws at this early stage of his development. We dont want another Derozan. Unlike Derozan, the upside is that Pascal possesses good defensive fundamentals.

    OG however is special, as soon as his body fully matures and muscles are fully developed, this guy will shut down most the of top wings of the league.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Great One
    replied
    Siakam failed his first big test(vs the Bucks). His next big test will be sunday against Davis and the Lakers.

    Dude needs to get his shit together and stay out of foul trouble every game.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    The thing is that Nurse is willing to experiment and lose games for the sake of developing better long-term habits, i.e, Process over Results. For years, we roasted Casey for not doing what Nurse is doing now.
    Yeah, my issues with Nurse have often been exactly which experiments he chooses to run and for how long. But can't argue with the idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    The thing is that Nurse is willing to experiment and lose games for the sake of developing better long-term habits, i.e, Process over Results. For years, we roasted Casey for not doing what Nurse is doing now.
    Yeah before Derozan was traded Nurse literally said that he will not try to hide Demar and force him to defend his position. It's the same thing with Siakam. Siakam needs to embrace this opportunity and learn how to be effective defender and not foul out.

    Leave a comment:

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