Everything Pascal Siakam

[golden]

Pretty distinct difference of being the greatest Raptor of all time and Being the greatest player to play for the Raptors. Kawhi is the 2nd one.

The age-old debate of highest peak vs. sustained excellence (but lower peak). Kawhi's peak was shorter than the lifespan of a fruit fly, tbh.

His actual peak was in the Sixers series where he was head & shoulders above any other Raptor against our (arguably) toughest opponent on the road to the chip. You take out the Sixers series and he's still our best player in the overall chip run, but it's more of a collective team effort. By the end, Kawhi was limping and getting carried by his teammates to close-out the injury-depleted Warriors.

Too many asterisks against Kawhi, especially in the Warriors series, to give him undisputed GROAT status.

[G__Deane]

Kyle is the GROAT for me but obviously, Kawhi is the best player ever to lace them up in Toronto.
I totally agree that Lowry owes his legacy and reputation to Kawhi. Without the Chip (that Kawhi was primarily responsible for), Kyle's rep is just a bulldog competitor that could never quite get it done and a bit of a playoff choker.

[The Great One]

The Sixers series was so memorable because Kawhi was the ONLY player that showed up in that series(still a miracle they won that series). But you guys have such short memories. You forgot about the Bucks series already? remember Game 3? they were down 0-2 and Lowry fouled out early in the 4th? game went to double OT and a hobbled Kawhi hit big shots after big shots to win the game. How about Game 5 IN Milwaukee? remember the last 8 mins of that game where Kawhi again hit clutch shots after clutch shots?

Like I said, if you put together the 10 greatest moments in Raptors franchise history, Kawhi probably would have 8 of them. I just mentioned 2. So who cares if he only played 1 year here.

[The Great One]

Last one, everyone remember "The shot" that was the greatest moment in Raptors history. The second greatest moment in Raptors history? this game. Game 4 against the Sixers IN Philly, down 1-2 in the series. Must win game obviously. And Kawhi literally was the only player that showed up in that game and somehow the Raptors won the game.

[golden]

Kyle is the GROAT for me but obviously, Kawhi is the best player ever to lace them up in Toronto.
I totally agree that Lowry owes his legacy and reputation to Kawhi. Without the Chip (that Kawhi was primarily responsible for), Kyle's rep is just a bulldog competitor that could never quite get it done and a bit of a playoff choker.

I guess the uncomfortable truth is that our franchise doesn't actually have a GROAT. Kawhi is an asterisk, and Lowry benefited directly from that asterisk.

[LJ2]

LOL, what?!

You realize Masai never makes an all-in move like trading DeMar for Kawhi, and JV for Gasol if the team isn't positioned to win that championship. Who do you think was the cornerstone to that foundation? Lowry's legacy as a Toronto Raptor goes well beyond the championship and anyone who doesn't realize or appreciate that is just interested in instant gratification. The journey gets forgotten real quick.

[planetmars]

Kyle essentially helped turn this team around. This franchise was a laughing stock before he got here. And I get that it was essentially Masai, but Masai built his team on top of Kyle's strengths. That bull dog, bring your lunch pail to work attitude is what Masai's Raptors are built on. And he couldn't have done it without Kyle already here. There is a Raptor Culture. And it was Kyle that helped set that bar.

His GROAT title for me goes beyond his ring. He already had that title before 2019. Getting to the ECF. Having the #1 seed in the East. Having some big playoff games, where he put the team on his back as his wing man was sulking on the bench.

There is so much nuance to this. I don't think it's easy for anyone to surpass what Kyle did. It would require a lot of consistency, for a lot of years, with a lot of greatness and team success in between.

Pascal may get there.. although his play in the bubble and Tampa season didn't help his cause at all. He'd have to likely win at least another chip as the team's best player.. with at least 10+ seasons played (Kyle played 9 here).

[LJ2]

Kyle essentially helped turn this team around. This franchise was a laughing stock before he got here. And I get that it was essentially Masai, but Masai built his team on top of Kyle's strengths. That bull dog, bring your lunch pail to work attitude is what Masai's Raptors are built on. And he couldn't have done it without Kyle already here. There is a Raptor Culture. And it was Kyle that helped set that bar.

His GROAT title for me goes beyond his ring. He already had that title before 2019. Getting to the ECF. Having the #1 seed in the East. Having some big playoff games, where he put the team on his back as his wing man was sulking on the bench.

There is so much nuance to this. I don't think it's easy for anyone to surpass what Kyle did. It would require a lot of consistency, for a lot of years, with a lot of greatness and team success in between.

Pascal may get there.. although his play in the bubble and Tampa season didn't help his cause at all. He'd have to likely win at least another chip as the team's best player.. with at least 10+ seasons played (Kyle played 9 here).

Can't like this enough. Kyle's legacy goes well beyond the the championship.

[The Great One]

Kyle essentially helped turn this team around. This franchise was a laughing stock before he got here. And I get that it was essentially Masai, but Masai built his team on top of Kyle's strengths. That bull dog, bring your lunch pail to work attitude is what Masai's Raptors are built on. And he couldn't have done it without Kyle already here. There is a Raptor Culture. And it was Kyle that helped set that bar.

His GROAT title for me goes beyond his ring. He already had that title before 2019. Getting to the ECF. Having the #1 seed in the East. Having some big playoff games, where he put the team on his back as his wing man was sulking on the bench.

Really? people have had enough of DeRozan AND Lowry after the 2018 season. That's what I remember. And again, if the Kawhi trade didn't happen we'd STILL be talking about Vince Carter as the greatest Raptor of all time. Why? because Masai would've likely shipped Lowry out of Toronto after they get eliminated again in the playoffs and his legacy here would be so much different.

[The Great One]

Also want to add, MOMENTS matter......a lot. One of the reasons why MJ is the GOAT because he's had so many legendary moments that nobody can top off not even LeBron. From the "flu game" to the shot over Russell to win the championship, the shot over Ehlo to win the series. I can go on and on. Kawhi Leonard in his one year here has created so many legendary moments. Including leading the team to its first ever championship. That's what makes him the GROAT.

Anyway, I can't believe that we're even talking about Siakam as possibly becoming the GROAT because......he was named as a 3rd team All NBA lol. Really? nobody will remember that. You know what Siakam will be remembered the most? his performance in Game 1 against the Warriors. Like, I said, moments.

[planetmars]

Really? people have had enough of DeRozan AND Lowry after the 2018 season. That's what I remember. And again, if the Kawhi trade didn't happen we'd STILL be talking about Vince Carter as the greatest Raptor of all time. Why? because Masai would've likely shipped Lowry out of Toronto after they get eliminated again in the playoffs and his legacy here would be so much different.

Vince never got passed the second round.. and the first round was a 5 game series that needed all 5 games. His team never got passed 47 wins. Vince was definitely special, but Kyle took that thrown with his regular season record and then playoff record. He just couldn't get passed Lebron. Greatness is different for different people. It's not just about stats for me.

Kyle was almost traded. He was rumoured to be part of the JV/Gasol trade where we'd take back Conley. He would have still been my GROAT if that happened.

[golden]

The Sixers series was so memorable because Kawhi was the ONLY player that showed up in that series(still a miracle they won that series). But you guys have such short memories. You forgot about the Bucks series already? remember Game 3? they were down 0-2 and Lowry fouled out early in the 4th? game went to double OT and a hobbled Kawhi hit big shots after big shots to win the game. How about Game 5 IN Milwaukee? remember the last 8 mins of that game where Kawhi again hit clutch shots after clutch shots?

Like I said, if you put together the 10 greatest moments in Raptors franchise history, Kawhi probably would have 8 of them. I just mentioned 2. So who cares if he only played 1 year here.

Kawhi is arguably the Greatest Rental in the history of pro sports. His closest comparison is Deion Sanders in the NFL. Sanders was also a great one season rental with the 49ers, winning the SuperBowl and NFL DPOY, but I don't think any 49ers fan would rank Sanders even top 20 greatest in their franchise history, over lesser talented role players who won more SuperBowls and had longer 49ers careers.

[planetmars]

Also want to add, MOMENTS matter......a lot. One of the reasons why MJ is the GOAT because he's had so many legendary moments that nobody can top off not even LeBron. From the "flu game" to the shot over Russell to win the championship, the shot over Ehlo to win the series. I can go on and on. Kawhi Leonard in his one year here has created so many legendary moments. Including leading the team to its first ever championship. That's what makes him the GROAT.

Anyway, I can't believe that we're even talking about Siakam as possibly becoming the GROAT because......he was named as a 3rd team All NBA lol. Really? nobody will remember that. You know what Siakam will be remembered the most? his performance in Game 1 against the Warriors. Like, I said, moments.

Kyle had a lot of moments. He dragged a bench to come back against the Mavs when they were down 30 or something going into the 4th quarter. He had some big playoff moments as well prior to Kawhi getting here. Game 7 against Miami. Game 4 against the Cavs. Both in 2016. He put his team on his back against the Celtics in the bubble. Remember that pass to OG? Remember him willing his team to victory in Game 6 to make it a Game 7?

Pascal is still a puppy. He's got a lot of time to find his moments as well.

[golden]

Vince never got passed the second round.. and the first round was a 5 game series that needed all 5 games. His team never got passed 47 wins. Vince was definitely special, but Kyle took that thrown with his regular season record and then playoff record. He just couldn't get passed Lebron. Greatness is different for different people. It's not just about stats for me.

Kyle was almost traded. He was rumoured to be part of the JV/Gasol trade where we'd take back Conley. He would have still been my GROAT if that happened.

Lowry is basically Mike Conley East. That's another great alternate universe "what if" scenario. Their paths have been inter-wined with front-office decisions, choosing between the two, directly affecting each others' career and legacy.

[The Great One]

Vince never got passed the second round.. and the first round was a 5 game series that needed all 5 games. His team never got passed 47 wins. Vince was definitely special, but Kyle took that thrown with his regular season record and then playoff record. He just couldn't get passed Lebron. Greatness is different for different people. It's not just about stats for me.

Kyle was almost traded. He was rumoured to be part of the JV/Gasol trade where we'd take back Conley. He would have still been my GROAT if that happened.

VC never had a team as good as the 2014-2020 Raptors teams. Not even close. He also never had a teammate as good as DeRozan. The best player that he's played with when he was here was Antonio freakin Davis.

What if they switch spot? put Lowry on the early 2000's Raptors teams and VC on the 2014-2020 Raptors teams. Do you think the Raptors make the playoffs with Lowry as the man on that early 2000's Raptors teams?

If prime VC played for the Raptors in 2014-2020 they probably would've had multiple championships.