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  • DanH
    replied
    Guys, I even pushed for the Raptors trying to get him a couple million below max just to try to free up a little wiggle room in 2021, and still this is a perfectly fine deal. They did well to avoid the player option in the 4th year (that's what I proposed offering to get the sub-max deal) and also got him to up the requirements on the 30% max from all-NBA to top two all-NBA teams, which is a much higher bar and likely protects them from that higher salary unless he makes the leap to true superstar.

    But golden, there is a) no way Pascal wouldn't have gotten a max offer next summer (3 years + PO). Even if he stumbled this year in a primary role. Max contracts are not just for primary options, and he's already proved himself a top notch second option scorer and defender. And b) basically no way he isn't already worth that salary. There is basically only upside to this deal. In all likelihood he out-earns it. Hield and Brown are not comparables (and there's a solid chance both end up getting max offers in FA anyway).

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  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Remember “max player” can mean anything from Chandler Parsons to Lebron James. So from that POV, you’re right. Get whatever they’ll pay you.
    exactly, that's pretty much the point. to you max player means lebron james or some sort of franchise carrying player. to the rest of the league it just means core building block

    edit - especially when talking about rookie extensions

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  • golden
    replied
    bertarapsfan wrote: View Post

    You have to think of the message this send to future targets and Pascal. Pascal was getting this money this year or next. Masai knows that he is going to have a big pitch in 2021. In the last week he did right by his guys Kyle and Pascal, that sends a message to the 2021 class we win championships, we arn't afraid to make big moves and we take care of our guys. I believe Masai is conscious that a bad reputation of a GM not treating players right can be killer. I.E Ainge (AD wanted nothing to do with boston).
    Yeah, it feels more like a perception move here. I’m guessing that Masai was feeling a bit insecure after Kawhi left. His whole “change the narrative” about free agents not wanting to come to Toronto blew up pretty badly in his face. Even winning the chip and elevating Kawhi’s status in the league to new heights wasn’t enough to keep him.

    Lowry took advantage of our vulnerability by threatening to force a trade and I think Pascal’s team may have low key been exploiting our weakness as well.

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  • bertarapsfan
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Not sure what you mean there, Maury.

    My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.

    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
    You have to think of the message this send to future targets and Pascal. Pascal was getting this money this year or next. Masai knows that he is going to have a big pitch in 2021. In the last week he did right by his guys Kyle and Pascal, that sends a message to the 2021 class we win championships, we arn't afraid to make big moves and we take care of our guys. I believe Masai is conscious that a bad reputation of a GM not treating players right can be killer. I.E Ainge (AD wanted nothing to do with boston).

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  • golden
    replied
    chris wrote: View Post

    he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position
    Remember “max player” can mean anything from Chandler Parsons to Lebron James. So from that POV, you’re right. Get whatever they’ll pay you.

    But Pascal hasn’t proven anything over a full season without Kawhi, and that’s what he’s getting paid max for. He hasn’t even made an all-star team as a replacement in the East yet. It’s an unknown at this point.... a hope. We’re betting on that 17-5 sample size last year being no fluke, and on further improvement. It’s a dice roll, but I trust Masai.

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  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post


    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
    he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position

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  • MixxAOR
    replied

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  • golden
    replied
    Maury wrote: View Post
    Golden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.

    At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.
    Not sure what you mean there, Maury.

    My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.

    But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.

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  • Maury
    replied
    Golden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.

    At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.

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  • Puffer
    replied
    I think anyone who believes Pascal won't work himself into this contract being an underpay in three years hasn't been following his career.

    By midseason, there will be no argument that he isn't a max player.

    IMHO

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  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    That doesn't make any sense. If he's willing to take a 2-year max from another team, and the Raps are still willing to offer him a 4-year max at higher raises than other teams, why would he take less money and less years?
    The offer sheet we'd have to worry about is a 3 year contract, with the 3rd year being a player option. Max money, player retains flexibility and control and hits free agency earlier at age 29 if he feels the franchise doesn't value him. From what we've read would you put it past Buddy Hield to sign an offer sheet like that? Ok Sacremento...you may control me but I'm going to make myself unrestricted 2 years sooner if you get cute.

    Kawhi Leonard's friction with the Spurs started with this exact same contract situation. He wanted the max, they made him wait until the following summer. He got his money from them eventually but started to doubt the franchise. Porzingis wanted the Knicks to max him and they made him wait too. That also didn't work out. I understand the advantages to waiting to next summer. I think those advantages are clear. But making him wait isn't without risks.

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  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    I have no worries with Pascal performing to the level of this contract. If he’s not in the all star game this year it will be a snub. And cap space is...overrated.

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  • golden
    replied
    Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

    Disagree. Pascal had more leverage and could sign a 2 year max with a player option next summer that we would end up matching. This gives the Raps Pascal’s rights for another 4 years and not rolling the dice on him being unrestricted in 2 years instead of 4.
    That doesn't make any sense. If he's willing to take a 2-year max from another team, and the Raps are still willing to offer him a 4-year max at higher raises than other teams, why would he take less money and less years?

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  • S.R.
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Nobody said Pascal is a bad player.... no twisting there, eh? The question is if he's going to justify being a max player and the implications to roster construction, if he doesn't pan out as a max player. All of your arguments... championship... win shares.... are all heavily interwined with team success. I mean, Lowry, Kawhi, Green and Gasol were also big win shares drivers. If you start handing out salaries based on win shares and championships, then your whole starting 5 are going to be max or near max.

    But again, all of these discussions are sidebars, because there was no good reason for the team to max him now.... unless Pascal was threatening to take the QO. That's the real story here. Why now?
    Maybe they really like him, really want to keep him, and wanted to send him a message. Players do seem to appreciate when teams step right up to the plate like this rather than waiting it out. They often make positive comments about "feeling wanted."

    There is an element of risk, there always is. We don't know if Lowry will hold up to the end of his deal. We don't know if the new deals are going to squeeze out Fred. We don't know if Pascal will continue to perform.

    It's a nice security blanket when your prospects are on cheap rookie deals. But if they improve you have to pay up, trade, or let them walk. Raps have decided to pay Pascal. It is what it is.

    Also, what DeMar did for the Raps and discounts other players have taken are the exception, not the norm. I don't expect it from anybody. Especially Siakam who started with a relatively small rookie deal as a 27th pick. This is his first payday. Guys virtually never leave money on the table with their first payday.

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  • Rudy Bargnani
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted.

    .
    Disagree. Pascal had more leverage and could sign a 2 year max with a player option next summer that we would end up matching. This gives the Raps Pascal’s rights for another 4 years and not rolling the dice on him being unrestricted in 2 years instead of 4.

    We control term this way.
    Last edited by Rudy Bargnani; Sat Oct 19th, 2019, 10:04 PM.

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