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  • slaw
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    If Pascal falls on his face as a first option this year... then he's not getting the max. Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted. That's probably what happened. There is no market at the moment - Raptors are purely bidding against themselves.

    You're the one who brought up "2nd best player on a championship team" as some type of justification for the max. Don't blame me for shooting that silly strawman.
    He was the second best player on the best team. Top 15 win shares. He’s a top 10 forward in the league. It’s not a straw man to point out he’s really good. You twisting the argument doesn’t make him a bad player.

    Even if he dies exactly what he did last year he’s getting a max offer. Look at the 2020 class. Lots of guys are getting max salaries, not just #1 options.

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  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post

    The Raps have no leverage. Have you been following the NBA? If they don’t sign him he’s either demanding a trade or leaving ASAP when he can.

    You are continuing to make irrelevant comparisons to other players. What does it matter that Kawhi is better than Pascal? That has no bearing whatsoever on Siakams contract. That’s not how the league works. He isn’t getting any premium. He’s getting exactly what he is worth.
    If Pascal falls on his face as a first option this year... then he's not getting the max. Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted. That's probably what happened. There is no market at the moment - Raptors are purely bidding against themselves.

    You're the one who brought up "2nd best player on a championship team" as some type of justification for the max. Don't blame me for shooting down that silly strawman.
    Last edited by golden; Sat Oct 19th, 2019, 09:25 PM.

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  • slaw
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    In the end Raptors are not signing big time free agents. So keeping our internal guys is a must. Raptors are absolutely not getting anybody better, so we have to overpay.
    They didn’t overpay him. He was getting the max from someone if not Toronto. It is delusional to think his market value is less than this deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • slaw
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    You're suggesting that there should be some type of premium because Pascal is the "2nd best player on a championship team"?

    1) There is a huge drop-off between Kawhi and Pascal. This needs no explanation.
    2) It is not a given that you pay a premium to a guy who helped you win a championship. Draymond is a bonafide DPOY, multi-time all-star on 3 championship teams, and he's never been a max player.

    The team had all the leverage.... except for one thing. Pure speculation, but one scenario could be that Pascal's agent threatened to take the Qualifying Offer and become unrestricted if he didn't get the max. Porzingis apparently talked about doing that before he got traded.
    The Raps have no leverage. Have you been following the NBA? If they don’t sign him he’s either demanding a trade or leaving ASAP when he can.

    You are continuing to make irrelevant comparisons to other players. What does it matter that Kawhi is better than Pascal? That has no bearing whatsoever on Siakams contract. That’s not how the league works. He isn’t getting any premium. He’s getting exactly what he is worth.

    Leave a comment:


  • SkywalkerAC
    replied
    MixxAOR wrote: View Post

    everybody knew but it was a matter of how much
    uh, max is max for a given player.

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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied
    Hello again folks,

    Well deserved for a guy who’s rapid growth and development is one of the great accomplishment of Masai and this franchise.

    He is not another Derozan after a decade in the league, still cannot defend and shoot a 22 footer just to save his life.

    A very good cornerstone to build around. Pascal showed his worth when it really mattered. Yes Draymond Green never tasted the max but could have gotten it if his circumstance is the same as Siakam.

    Now this a very good motivation for OG and Boucher, both players can dream at this point. Now they have to work their tails off to reach Pascal’s stature.



    Leave a comment:


  • bertarapsfan
    replied
    I thought we would wait till offseason but glad we got him locked up long term. No one should really be upset about this. We all wanted pascal for his prime years and now we have that. Whats the diffrence between 140 mil now and maybe 120 mil next summer is he has a bit of a down year, thats assuming no one offers him the max which someone surly would. Masai has to build back some good will around the league after the Derozen trade, Boston fucked themselves with how they did IT and Ainge isn't going to get away from that reputation any time soon. This deal and the Lowry deal send a message not only to our current players but future ones that although Masai has the balls to make tough trades, he will reward our guys and give them the $ they deserve.
    Good move, I truly believe Masai is weighing what his rep will be when the big free agent class of 2021 comes around and both these contracts help immensely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Truth Teller
    replied
    I think we can trust Masai. Also giving him the max keeps him happy. Theres no telling now that if a player has a breakout allstar season - they could just bolt or demand to leave if he wasn't on a long contract.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    In the end Raptors are not signing big time free agents. So keeping our internal guys is a must. Raptors are absolutely not getting anybody better, so we have to overpay.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post

    What? Are you just being contrarian or intentionally obtuse? You are the one making irrelevant comparisons to disparage the deal. I’m simply pointing out that, compared to his peers, he has as good or a better case fir his deal as anyone.

    The implication you’re making here is as ridiculous as the player comps you were making earlier.
    You're suggesting that there should be some type of premium because Pascal is the "2nd best player on a championship team"?

    1) There is a huge drop-off between Kawhi and Pascal. This needs no explanation.
    2) It is not a given that you pay a premium to a guy who helped you win a championship. Draymond is a bonafide DPOY, multi-time all-star on 3 championship teams, and he's never been a max player.

    The team had all the leverage.... except for one thing. Pure speculation, but one scenario could be that Pascal's agent threatened to take the Qualifying Offer and become unrestricted if he didn't get the max. Porzingis apparently talked about doing that before he got traded.

    Leave a comment:


  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    He "was" a bargain. But now he's a big bet. I love everything Pascal stands for... so now we're all hoping and praying now he can justify that bet.
    i guess i disagree that it's a big risk. if he does absolutely nothing to improve on his performance from last year i think the deal is still worth it, in this market. if he improves at all it's gravy

    Leave a comment:


  • slaw
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Good lord.... if Masai allows every Raptor player agent to use the " ______ player on a championship team" line against him in contract negotiations, then we're doomed. Every guy on our roster is going to be overpaid..... and the guy most responsible for that championship isn't even here anymore. lol.
    What? Are you just being contrarian or intentionally obtuse? You are the one making irrelevant comparisons to disparage the deal. I’m simply pointing out that, compared to his peers, he has as good or a better case fir his deal as anyone.

    The implication you’re making here is as ridiculous as the player comps you were making earlier.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    chris wrote: View Post

    why should he, at this stage? he's been a massive bargain as a late first round pick, it's the first big contract of his career, and we're set to have a fuckload of cap space anyway. if we were pressed cap-wise that might make a bit of sense but we have quite a bit of flexibility.


    i expect him to be better than all five of those guys so it's probably a good deal.
    He "was" a bargain. But now he's a big bet. I love everything Pascal stands for... so now we're all hoping and praying now he can justify that bet.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    Siakam was the second best player on a championship team. Brown is the fourth or fifth (?) option in Boston and is coming off a disappointing season. Hield is a nice player but he’s a step or two below Pascal.
    Good lord.... if Masai allows every Raptor player agent to use the " ______ player on a championship team" line against him in contract negotiations, then we're doomed. Every guy on our roster is going to be overpaid..... and the guy most responsible for that championship isn't even here anymore. lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • chris
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Yeah, I know how market dynamics work and Pascal took full advantage of the timing. Like I said, good for him. I was hoping he would have been a bit less greedy, but I guess the days of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker taking hometown discounts are ancient history.
    why should he, at this stage? he's been a massive bargain as a late first round pick, it's the first big contract of his career, and we're set to have a fuckload of cap space anyway. if we were pressed cap-wise that might make a bit of sense but we have quite a bit of flexibility.

    golden wrote: View Post
    I mean, you could compare Pascal to Murray and Simmons (full max), but you could also use Jaylen Brown and Buddy Hield's offers as comps (20-22M/yr). I thought he would end up coming somewhere in between, say 25-27M/year. That said, after Pascal's deal, Brown and Buddy probably aren't going to take those offers.
    i expect him to be better than all five of those guys so it's probably a good deal.

    Leave a comment:

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