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Everything Pascal Siakam
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Guys, I even pushed for the Raptors trying to get him a couple million below max just to try to free up a little wiggle room in 2021, and still this is a perfectly fine deal. They did well to avoid the player option in the 4th year (that's what I proposed offering to get the sub-max deal) and also got him to up the requirements on the 30% max from all-NBA to top two all-NBA teams, which is a much higher bar and likely protects them from that higher salary unless he makes the leap to true superstar.
But golden, there is a) no way Pascal wouldn't have gotten a max offer next summer (3 years + PO). Even if he stumbled this year in a primary role. Max contracts are not just for primary options, and he's already proved himself a top notch second option scorer and defender. And b) basically no way he isn't already worth that salary. There is basically only upside to this deal. In all likelihood he out-earns it. Hield and Brown are not comparables (and there's a solid chance both end up getting max offers in FA anyway).
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golden wrote: View Post
Remember “max player” can mean anything from Chandler Parsons to Lebron James. So from that POV, you’re right. Get whatever they’ll pay you.
edit - especially when talking about rookie extensions
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bertarapsfan wrote: View Post
You have to think of the message this send to future targets and Pascal. Pascal was getting this money this year or next. Masai knows that he is going to have a big pitch in 2021. In the last week he did right by his guys Kyle and Pascal, that sends a message to the 2021 class we win championships, we arn't afraid to make big moves and we take care of our guys. I believe Masai is conscious that a bad reputation of a GM not treating players right can be killer. I.E Ainge (AD wanted nothing to do with boston).
Lowry took advantage of our vulnerability by threatening to force a trade and I think Pascal’s team may have low key been exploiting our weakness as well.
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golden wrote: View Post
Not sure what you mean there, Maury.
My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.
But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
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chris wrote: View Post
he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position
But Pascal hasn’t proven anything over a full season without Kawhi, and that’s what he’s getting paid max for. He hasn’t even made an all-star team as a replacement in the East yet. It’s an unknown at this point.... a hope. We’re betting on that 17-5 sample size last year being no fluke, and on further improvement. It’s a dice roll, but I trust Masai.
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golden wrote: View Post
But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
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Maury wrote: View PostGolden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.
At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.
My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.
But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
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Golden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.
At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.
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I think anyone who believes Pascal won't work himself into this contract being an underpay in three years hasn't been following his career.
By midseason, there will be no argument that he isn't a max player.
IMHO
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golden wrote: View Post
That doesn't make any sense. If he's willing to take a 2-year max from another team, and the Raps are still willing to offer him a 4-year max at higher raises than other teams, why would he take less money and less years?
Kawhi Leonard's friction with the Spurs started with this exact same contract situation. He wanted the max, they made him wait until the following summer. He got his money from them eventually but started to doubt the franchise. Porzingis wanted the Knicks to max him and they made him wait too. That also didn't work out. I understand the advantages to waiting to next summer. I think those advantages are clear. But making him wait isn't without risks.
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I have no worries with Pascal performing to the level of this contract. If he’s not in the all star game this year it will be a snub. And cap space is...overrated.
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Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
Disagree. Pascal had more leverage and could sign a 2 year max with a player option next summer that we would end up matching. This gives the Raps Pascal’s rights for another 4 years and not rolling the dice on him being unrestricted in 2 years instead of 4.
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golden wrote: View Post
Nobody said Pascal is a bad player.... no twisting there, eh? The question is if he's going to justify being a max player and the implications to roster construction, if he doesn't pan out as a max player. All of your arguments... championship... win shares.... are all heavily interwined with team success. I mean, Lowry, Kawhi, Green and Gasol were also big win shares drivers. If you start handing out salaries based on win shares and championships, then your whole starting 5 are going to be max or near max.
But again, all of these discussions are sidebars, because there was no good reason for the team to max him now.... unless Pascal was threatening to take the QO. That's the real story here. Why now?
There is an element of risk, there always is. We don't know if Lowry will hold up to the end of his deal. We don't know if the new deals are going to squeeze out Fred. We don't know if Pascal will continue to perform.
It's a nice security blanket when your prospects are on cheap rookie deals. But if they improve you have to pay up, trade, or let them walk. Raps have decided to pay Pascal. It is what it is.
Also, what DeMar did for the Raps and discounts other players have taken are the exception, not the norm. I don't expect it from anybody. Especially Siakam who started with a relatively small rookie deal as a 27th pick. This is his first payday. Guys virtually never leave money on the table with their first payday.
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