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  • golden
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    They could buy out Dragic and get 2M in room without making a trade. More than enough to add a buyout guy and convert a 2-way.

    Instead they made the trade to get Thad. The trade was right at the deadline, so they did not actually add any usable flexibility by making the trade.

    I have no issue with this being a critique of the team overall. Categorizing this trade as a flexibility trade, or a tax ducking trade, is simply wrong though.
    Raptors just don't do buyouts.... especially not the size of Dragic' salary. That's another financial line they don't cross for whatever reason.

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  • golden
    replied
    planetmars

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  • DanH
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    And c) to get farther below the tax line to gain flexibility. And I would bet that was their number one goal. The rotation player piece is a laugh considering again he duplicates a lot of what they already had. And please don't talk about that locker room crap. You don't think guys with championships would have that same clout?

    You made an article about their cap situation prior to the deadline. They were $19K (that's 19 thousand) below the luxury tax if they didn't do anything. That's not being flexible. The Thad trade created flexibility and they made that an important factor in to why they brought him back in that deal.

    https://www.raptorshq.com/2022/1/19/...2-myles-turner

    Not doing anything with that flexibility is also something this front office is good at. Or at least has been for the last couple of seasons. But they still wanted it. And that's always been an important goal. Just like it did with the Pascal trade. Now let's see if anything gets done with that added flexibility.

    But back in 2022, their decision to remain flexible is ultimately what lead to the downfall of the #WeTheNorth team.
    They could buy out Dragic and get 2M in room without making a trade. More than enough to add a buyout guy and convert a 2-way.

    Instead they made the trade to get Thad. The trade was right at the deadline, so they did not actually add any usable flexibility by making the trade.

    I have no issue with this being a critique of the team overall. Categorizing this trade as a flexibility trade, or a tax ducking trade, is simply wrong though.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post

    What are you talking about? What flexibility did they gain with that trade? They traded one expiring for another, cleared room under the tax that they wouldn't use...

    They traded for Thad for exactly that reason - they thought he was a) a rotation player and b) a veteran presence for the young guys. No other reason holds up if you give it any real thought.
    And c) to get farther below the tax line to gain flexibility. And I would bet that was their number one goal. The rotation player piece is a laugh considering again he duplicates a lot of what they already had. And please don't talk about that locker room crap. You don't think guys with championships would have that same clout?

    You made an article about their cap situation prior to the deadline. They were $19K (that's 19 thousand) below the luxury tax if they didn't do anything. That's not being flexible. The Thad trade created flexibility and they made that an important factor in to why they brought him back in that deal.

    https://www.raptorshq.com/2022/1/19/...2-myles-turner

    Not doing anything with that flexibility is also something this front office is good at. Or at least has been for the last couple of seasons. But they still wanted it. And that's always been an important goal. Just like it did with the Pascal trade. Now let's see if anything gets done with that added flexibility.

    But back in 2022, their decision to remain flexible is ultimately what lead to the downfall of the #WeTheNorth team.

    Leave a comment:


  • A.I
    replied
    I guess the thing with Thad was he was a serviceable player with the Bulls the season before the Spurs. On the Spurs, he played minutes early on then it was a mutual agreement that he sits out while they look a trade or buy him out. I guess Raptors thought he could go back to being a 12 PPG serviceable role player.

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  • DanH
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    The vet locker room stuff is fluff for the media and fans. Glad you ate that up. They could have just found a guy from the buyout market to give that. Not trade down in the draft and lose the large expiring contract they had.

    It was to remain cap flexible. That was a priority. And always has been with this front office. Flexibility over anything else. It's also why term is so important when they negotiate with their free agents.
    What are you talking about? What flexibility did they gain with that trade? They traded one expiring for another, cleared room under the tax that they wouldn't use...

    They traded for Thad for exactly that reason - they thought he was a) a rotation player and b) a veteran presence for the young guys. No other reason holds up if you give it any real thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    A big component of that trade was to clear the tax. It was for flexibility. Even quoted here:
    https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/...n-dragic-trade

    They wanted to remain flexible by ducking the tax. If they actually wanted Thad Young the player.. ie, another 6'9 forward that can't shoot and would be super redundant next to Pascal, OG and Scottie. But super washed up at that point too... then they may be dumber than I thought they were.
    Webster's just quoting the numbers and guessing at motivation. I know the numbers as well as him. And they moved the Raps further below the tax.

    Buying Dragic out likely moves them low enough as well, so it pretty much definitely wasn't for that reason.

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  • golden
    replied
    A.I wrote: View Post

    Well in defense of Bobby, Dallas Porzingis was a super risky contract to take on. Tax aside, he was injury prone. So did it make sense to take on Porzingis' contract to go into the tax? It worked out on the Wizards where he was able to get healthier last season and brought his value back up, but thats hindsight now.

    It looks good since it worked out and we can say why didn't the Raptors make that move, but if we did it and it didn't work, we'd be saying why the hell did we take on that contract.
    It’s Bobby & Masai’s job to have a better crystal ball than other front offices. That’s the whole reason why they get those multimillion dollar salaries. That’s the job description, like it or not.

    Believing in the Fred/Siakam/OG core was the root cause of the poor decision making because paying “those guys” was baked into future cap tables.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    A.I wrote: View Post

    I believe that was the 48 win season. They were struggling in the first half of the season, so in the front office's mind, I don't think it made sense to trade for a injury prone player and go into the tax when they were already under it.

    Of course Porzingis would have been a risk to take because if it did work, it would have looked pretty good, but I can get why they didn't go that route.

    For the record, the Thad trade was dumb too.
    They could have gone in multiple directions.. and chose the one that gave them short term flexibility. That's the crux. It's more important to be flexible than to put together a decent team that can be competitive.

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  • planetmars
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    The Thad trade was super dumb from a team construction perspective. I didn't mind the pick cost much because the bottom of that draft was super flat and I'm still pretty confident they'd have taken Koloko at 20 anyway.

    But they made the trade to add a vet locker room guy, which who knows how much it helped the young players, but on-court definitely didn't help much. A waste of an opportunity, even if less actual cost than most people assume by framing it as trading away that pick.
    The vet locker room stuff is fluff for the media and fans. Glad you ate that up. They could have just found a guy from the buyout market to give that. Not trade down in the draft and lose the large expiring contract they had.

    It was to remain cap flexible. That was a priority. And always has been with this front office. Flexibility over anything else. It's also why term is so important when they negotiate with their free agents.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    The Thad trade was not made to duck the tax. They were already clear of the tax if they just rode out the year with Dragic on the team.

    It's perfectly fine to critique the move but let's not make up fictional reasons why they did it.
    A big component of that trade was to clear the tax. It was for flexibility. Even quoted here:
    https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/...n-dragic-trade

    Toronto was right up against the luxury tax prior to the deal and now has nearly $5 million of luxury tax space to work with this season. It'll allow the Raptors to turn Justin Champagnie's two-way contract into a full contract, according to Sportsnet's Michael Grange.
    They wanted to remain flexible by ducking the tax. If they actually wanted Thad Young the player.. ie, another 6'9 forward that can't shoot and would be super redundant next to Pascal, OG and Scottie. But super washed up at that point too... then they may be dumber than I thought they were.

    Leave a comment:


  • A.I
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post

    I think they needed to take on that risk. Because they took Thad Young instead. A guy that the Spurs were willing to buy out. He was already super washed at that point.

    What the Raptors were missing was clearly 3pt shooting and rim protection. Porzingis would have solved both issues.
    I believe that was the 48 win season. They were struggling in the first half of the season, so in the front office's mind, I don't think it made sense to trade for a injury prone player and go into the tax when they were already under it.

    Of course Porzingis would have been a risk to take because if it did work, it would have looked pretty good, but I can get why they didn't go that route.

    For the record, the Thad trade was dumb too.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    The Thad trade was super dumb from a team construction perspective. I didn't mind the pick cost much because the bottom of that draft was super flat and I'm still pretty confident they'd have taken Koloko at 20 anyway.

    But they made the trade to add a vet locker room guy, which who knows how much it helped the young players, but on-court definitely didn't help much. A waste of an opportunity, even if less actual cost than most people assume by framing it as trading away that pick.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    A.I wrote: View Post

    Well in defense of Bobby, Dallas Porzingis was a super risky contract to take on. Tax aside, he was injury prone. So did it make sense to take on Porzingis' contract to go into the tax? It worked out on the Wizards where he was able to get healthier last season and brought his value back up, but thats hindsight now.

    It looks good since it worked out and we can say why didn't the Raptors make that move, but if we did it and it didn't work, we'd be saying why the hell did we take on that contract.
    I think they needed to take on that risk. Because they took Thad Young instead. A guy that the Spurs were willing to buy out. He was already super washed at that point.

    What the Raptors were missing was clearly 3pt shooting and rim protection. Porzingis would have solved both issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    You’re missing the point.

    The alternative was to trade Dragic for Porzingis, which Bobby is on record saying they didn’t want to take on money that had future tax implications.

    Option A: Thad + no tax
    Option B: KP + tax
    Sure. But that's not ducking the tax. That's not making a different trade that would get them into the tax.

    The way it's being framed is that we traded for Thad to get under the tax line. This did not happen and we should talk about deals in the way they actually happened.

    I would like to live in your simplistic universe though where there were only ever two possible things to do at that trade deadline, and doing nothing wasn't even one of the options.

    Leave a comment:

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