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  • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Very fair comment especially you stating about Pascal’s humility vs. Draymond’s heart of a killer.

    What is important for Masai at this point of his tenure as a GM is something im keen to know before the deadline. He has proven this offseason that he can be heartless with business/ ultimate team’s success outweighs loyalty.
    Yeah, and to me, I don't find what Masai did the least bit heartless, honestly, Zero. It's all about winning a chip. For anyone in sports.

    I'm not sure that the factor in the trade you're proposing has anything to do with loyalty, but rather who actually gives us the best chance of winning a championship -- right now as well as in the near future -- (after we resign Kawhi ) .... While there's a good argument to be made that Draymond could increase those odds.. I think you'll find just as many here who think Dray could blow the whole thing apart, and that it'd be better to stick with all of the promise that Siakam holds right now, as well as his on and off the court chemistry with this team.

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    • GOLDBLUM wrote: View Post
      Yeah, and to me, I don't find what Masai did the least bit heartless, honestly, Zero. It's all about winning a chip. For anyone in sports.

      I'm not sure that the factor in the trade you're proposing has anything to do with loyalty, but rather who actually gives us the best chance of winning a championship -- right now as well as in the near future -- (after we resign Kawhi ) .... While there's a good argument to be made that Draymond could increase those odds.. I think you'll find just as many here who think Dray could blow the whole thing apart, and that it'd be better to stick with all of the promise that Siakam holds right now, as well as his on and off the court chemistry with this team.

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        • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
          Definitely, it requires a lot of thinking for Masai’s part thats for sure with that kind of a trade scenario. Pascal’s development is something to be proud of as an organization. As you and some already stated, the risk of acquiring Draymond is huge but the reward if he buys in to what Masai is selling could result to something unimaginable for this franchise since 1995.

          If we start an honest poll, it could be 50/50.
          My vote would be: No to Draymond. And if the outgoing piece is Siakam, double No. Just my vote.
          2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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          • I'll butt in, unwelcomed, about Draymond Green. The main thing is, he plays for the Warriors. That fact makes him look better than he is.

            Green is known as an outstanding defender. He is quite good, yes. But he gets a lot of leeway because of the Warriors aura. Some of what he does would get called fouls if he was on a different team, I think. I don't mean refs are intentionally biased. But human judgment is subjective and swayed by unconscious influences. If Green went to the Raptors and played the same way he might foul out of every game.

            Green has high assist numbers. But look at who he's passing to. Any good passer should have high assist numbers on that team.

            Green's shooting, from 2pt range, is good, but probably not as good as it should be since Green is never the primary focus for defenders, trying to guard that team that has Curry, Klay and KD.

            Certainly Green is a good player. There's no denying that. It's only, I think if you got him you would be disappointed, that he didn't seem to be as good as he looks now with the Warriors.

            Trading Siakam for him would be a regrettable decision. My view, for what its worth.

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            • TacoBreath wrote: View Post
              I'll butt in, unwelcomed, about Draymond Green.
              We've said it before...

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              • Not to mention we'd have to pay through the nose to keep Draymond in the summer.

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                • Iis there an argument to be made that Serge/Draymond pairing would work better than Serge/Pascal D? Defense is Draymonds bread and butter after all and he may help with some of the Raptors woes with rebounding. Higher basketball IQ player at this point of his career, not afraid to intimidate star players, can create plays for others, better shooter as well. Did he win DPOY previously or come close to it?

                  I don't think he moves the needle as much in terms of offense, but if the Raptors were to hang their hat on defense, it's hard to think of a better player to slot between Serge and Danny/Kawhi. I do think Pascal can be much better on D than he is now though.

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                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                    Iis there an argument to be made that Serge/Draymond pairing would work better than Serge/Pascal D? Defense is Draymonds bread and butter after all and he may help with some of the Raptors woes with rebounding. Higher basketball IQ player at this point of his career, not afraid to intimidate star players, can create plays for others, better shooter as well. Did he win DPOY previously or come close to it?

                    I don't think he moves the needle as much in terms of offense, but if the Raptors were to hang their hat on defense, it's hard to think of a better player to slot between Serge and Danny/Kawhi. I do think Pascal can be much better on D than he is now though.
                    Are we glossing over the fact that Draymond is shooting right at 30% on 3-pt shots the last 3 years (career 32.5%). That's bad. This, despite having the widest of wide open looks in the NBA? He's hugely over-rated. Warriors have enough firepower to withstand Draymond's poor shooting, but we would need him to hit his open 3's at a 35-40% clip in the playoffs, especially when Lowry gets double teamed.

                    In the playoffs you need that 3rd guy to create shots and put pressure on the defense. Draymond isn't a shot creator or an elite catch & shoot guy. He's the exact opposite - a huge beneficiary of other shot creators diverting pressure from him on GSW. Draymond would look like prime playoff Patrick Patterson in our offense, maybe worse, except he'd be earning 30M/year. He moves the needle the wrong way on offense. Pascal is already significantly ahead of Draymond in terms of shot creation and putting pressure on opposing defenses.

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                    • Draymond's a good player, but his biggest impact is his role within GS that allowed them to create their original Lineup of Death instead always having a David Lee or Zaza or whoever on the floor. He's mobile and can defend full size 5's (in limited minutes) or more mobile players out to the perimeter. That really unlocked GS's potential.

                      Since then, everybody's been trying to do the same. Most guys doing it don't quite have Draymond's defensive versatility, you're usually picking between a guy who can defend really well (Clint Capela) vs. a guy who can shoot from outside (Myles Turner?). Al Horford's a pretty good comparable, minus the Draymond antics.

                      The salary is really the problem imho. Between Ibaka, JV, and Siakam, the Raptors already have enough versatility at the 5 to get the lineup combinations they want and put different strengths on the floor given whatever situation. They really don't need The Nut Cracker, even though it's almost Christmas.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Are we glossing over the fact that Draymond is shooting right at 30% on 3-pt shots the last 3 years (career 32.5%). That's bad. This, despite having the widest of wide open looks in the NBA? He's hugely over-rated. Warriors have enough firepower to withstand Draymond's poor shooting, but we would need him to hit his open 3's at a 35-40% clip in the playoffs, especially when Lowry gets double teamed.

                        In the playoffs you need that 3rd guy to create shots and put pressure on the defense. Draymond isn't a shot creator or an elite catch & shoot guy. He's the exact opposite - a huge beneficiary of other shot creators diverting pressure from him on GSW. Draymond would look like prime playoff Patrick Patterson in our offense, maybe worse, except he'd be earning 30M/year. He moves the needle the wrong way on offense. Pascal is already significantly ahead of Draymond in terms of shot creation and putting pressure on opposing defenses.
                        His numbers in the playoffs are pretty solid. Improvements across the board pretty much. He's a playoff performer and doesn't shy away from the spotlight thought his numbers were down last year...KD effect maybe? It's his intangibles and defense which make him a good player imo, and those are the things that don't always show up on paper.

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                        • golden wrote: View Post
                          Are we glossing over the fact that Draymond is shooting right at 30% on 3-pt shots the last 3 years (career 32.5%). That's bad. This, despite having the widest of wide open looks in the NBA? He's hugely over-rated. Warriors have enough firepower to withstand Draymond's poor shooting, but we would need him to hit his open 3's at a 35-40% clip in the playoffs, especially when Lowry gets double teamed.

                          In the playoffs you need that 3rd guy to create shots and put pressure on the defense. Draymond isn't a shot creator or an elite catch & shoot guy. He's the exact opposite - a huge beneficiary of other shot creators diverting pressure from him on GSW. Draymond would look like prime playoff Patrick Patterson in our offense, maybe worse, except he'd be earning 30M/year. He moves the needle the wrong way on offense. Pascal is already significantly ahead of Draymond in terms of shot creation and putting pressure on opposing defenses.
                          100%. Siakam is also younger, much cheaper, higher upside, and more stable in the locker room.
                          2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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                          • Draymond Green is an elite defender. Can Siakam get to that level?

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                            • I hate Draymond so much. He is the player I hate most in the NBA. I hate him for his bitching and his kicking and I hate everything else about him.

                              Any other player I could come to grips with. I wouldn't want Melo or Dwight but I'd get over it.

                              But not Draymond. That guy represents the worst of sports in my opinion.

                              I wouldn't take ten of him for one Pascal. The two are completely antithetical. Despite my earlier doubts Pascal represents the pinnacle of what Masai has achieved here, and he should be off limits except for a deal for a star under team control for several years, like Beal.
                              It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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                              • If we're talking about this season, Pascal is significantly better than Draymond offensively right now. He's literally leading the league in 2P%, dude is shooting 79% at the rim on reasonable volume (about 4.5 shots per game). He's a lot younger than Draymond, cheaper, and imo he might actually be more versatile defensively (I think Pascal can guard 1-4 and some 5s, Draymond can guard 2-5).

                                Would not trade him for Draymond under any circumstances.

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