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  • I’d rather just add Suggs, green, or Mobley to this core and see where we’re at next season.

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    • Siakam should have more value than a magical box. Wiseman was horrible.. and yeah bigs require development.. but he was horrible. Like was he an actual bust? I remember seeing him play the Raptors and I thought Gillie was better.

      #7 is probably a good prospect. I had Moody as my Raptor pick before we moved up. But I take Siakam over Moody all day, every day. Siakam was a legit top 10-15 player two years ago (and that was without Kawhi).

      He needs a home court.. and we should have that next year. Guy is a 2-way player. He had a really bad year.. but now is not the time to undersell.

      Wait until Zion or Luka want out of NO/Dallas.. then trade Siakam for them. That's the right move. Not fricken Wiseman, Moody or Wiggins.

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      • planetmars wrote: View Post
        Siakam should have more value than a magical box. Wiseman was horrible.. and yeah bigs require development.. but he was horrible. Like was he an actual bust? I remember seeing him play the Raptors and I thought Gillie was better.

        #7 is probably a good prospect. I had Moody as my Raptor pick before we moved up. But I take Siakam over Moody all day, every day. Siakam was a legit top 10-15 player two years ago (and that was without Kawhi).

        He needs a home court.. and we should have that next year. Guy is a 2-way player. He had a really bad year.. but now is not the time to undersell.

        Wait until Zion or Luka want out of NO/Dallas.. then trade Siakam for them. That's the right move. Not fricken Wiseman, Moody or Wiggins.
        Fair take, this trade all depends on how much you value Wiseman. If you think he's a bust then this trade becomes 7th pick for Pascal and that's obviously very poor value. I didn't watch Wiseman at all this year so I don't have a firm grasp on him as a player. His stats look decent for a 1st year 20 year old center and he has legit center size and weight, but that's the extent of the analysis I can make right now.

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        • Primer wrote: View Post

          Fair take, this trade all depends on how much you value Wiseman. If you think he's a bust then this trade becomes 7th pick for Pascal and that's obviously very poor value. I didn't watch Wiseman at all this year so I don't have a firm grasp on him as a player. His stats look decent for a 1st year 20 year old center and he has legit center size and weight, but that's the extent of the analysis I can make right now.
          I think GS handled his development poorly, and put too much pressure on him. Draymond did his usual Raymond thing, and the kid regressed. So we didn't;t see the best Wiseman, but it's hard to evaluate how good he actually is. But if they are actually putting him in deals... I would suspect there's some issues. I know there are complaints about his stone hands and feel for the game.

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          • Primer wrote: View Post

            Fair take, this trade all depends on how much you value Wiseman. If you think he's a bust then this trade becomes 7th pick for Pascal and that's obviously very poor value. I didn't watch Wiseman at all this year so I don't have a firm grasp on him as a player. His stats look decent for a 1st year 20 year old center and he has legit center size and weight, but that's the extent of the analysis I can make right now.
            I think Siakam has become really under rated. He had a really bad year coming off a terrible bubble experience. But he had some quality games. That Laker game for example where he was on fire. He scored around 35 while also shutting down AD. That's the guy we were excited about last season when he got into the second all-nba team (and that was legitimate). He was a top 15 player that year.. and that was without Kawhi.

            What changed? Well the most drastic thing was covid. He wasn't energized by a home crowd. And he was a kid that played with a lot of energy. Tampa started poorly as well. The worst thing about Pascal last season was how anti clutch he was.. but he was super clutch the season prior. It was just a really bad year.. it's like someone had cursed him.

            I just feel bad about the kid. Yeah he's 27 but he started the game late.. and guys play until their 36-37 now.

            He's not a #1 star.. but there are only a handful of those.

            I don't trade Siakam for a prospect that hasn't panned out yet.. or some future picks. You trade him for another star like we did with DeMar. I'd want to see what he's like back in Toronto again.

            I've said this a lot now.. but go look at his shooting splits in Toronto and then on the road (including the bubble and Tampa). It's night and day. He's like a 40%+ shooter in Toronto.

            I suspect he'll be an all-star next year again.

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            • At best Wiseman + 7 feels lateral - best case scenario those guys give you peak Siakam. Good chance they don't. Either way you're treading water.

              I'm with those that think even just keeping the #4, this team is nicely stocked again with good, mostly young talent. That #4 may be able to develop into your 1A, or with these assets you trade for one. But Wiseman/7 aren't a sure thing to move this roster forward vs the current players, at all. Why shuffle things around just for the sake of it.

              Hell, that #4 is likely to be a very good player! Why not just add that to Fred/Siakam/OG/GTJ? That's promising!
              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                At best Wiseman + 7 feels lateral - best case scenario those guys give you peak Siakam. Good chance they don't. Either way you're treading water.

                I'm with those that think even just keeping the #4, this team is nicely stocked again with good, mostly young talent. That #4 may be able to develop into your 1A, or with these assets you trade for one. But Wiseman/7 aren't a sure thing to move this roster forward vs the current players, at all. Why shuffle things around just for the sake of it.

                Hell, that #4 is likely to be a very good player! Why not just add that to Fred/Siakam/OG/GTJ? That's promising!
                And, remember, there will be some activity in free agency. There is going to be lots of change even without any major trades.

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                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  And, remember, there will be some activity in free agency. There is going to be lots of change even without any major trades.
                  Agreed. More stars or any sort of upgrades that the Raptors may be interested in could become available throughout the off-season.

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                  • strongly in agreement with PM and SR. siakam gave us 40+ minutes a night of excellent two-way play as the second option on a championship team and after one series in the bubble and an up and down year playing in tampa (more up than down i'd argue) and everyone thinks he's trash. players like that don't grow on trees. just because he's not kawhi doesn't mean we should unload for 50c on the dollar.

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                    • planetmars wrote: View Post

                      I think Siakam has become really under rated. He had a really bad year coming off a terrible bubble experience. But he had some quality games. That Laker game for example where he was on fire. He scored around 35 while also shutting down AD. That's the guy we were excited about last season when he got into the second all-nba team (and that was legitimate). He was a top 15 player that year.. and that was without Kawhi.

                      What changed? Well the most drastic thing was covid. He wasn't energized by a home crowd. And he was a kid that played with a lot of energy. Tampa started poorly as well. The worst thing about Pascal last season was how anti clutch he was.. but he was super clutch the season prior. It was just a really bad year.. it's like someone had cursed him.

                      I just feel bad about the kid. Yeah he's 27 but he started the game late.. and guys play until their 36-37 now.

                      He's not a #1 star.. but there are only a handful of those.

                      I don't trade Siakam for a prospect that hasn't panned out yet.. or some future picks. You trade him for another star like we did with DeMar. I'd want to see what he's like back in Toronto again.

                      I've said this a lot now.. but go look at his shooting splits in Toronto and then on the road (including the bubble and Tampa). It's night and day. He's like a 40%+ shooter in Toronto.

                      I suspect he'll be an all-star next year again.
                      This is a compelling case to keep Siakam, especially the part about where we need a Kawhi coming back if we trade him, not prospects.

                      ​​​Pascal back in Toronto could easily be his best season ever.

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                      • Primer wrote: View Post

                        This is a compelling case to keep Siakam, especially the part about where we need a Kawhi coming back if we trade him, not prospects.

                        ​​​Pascal back in Toronto could easily be his best season ever.
                        I feel like there are pretty compelling arguments to be made on both sides.
                        Glad it's in the hands of our Raps management.
                        I'd love to be a fly on the wall as they weigh this, and other perspective moves like it.

                        As one of the posters above mentioned, we have a ton of options. So good to have our level of mobility.
                        We could end up going any which way.

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                        • GOLDBLUM wrote: View Post

                          I feel like there are pretty compelling arguments to be made on both sides.
                          Glad it's in the hands of our Raps management.
                          I'd love to be a fly on the wall as they weigh this, and other perspective moves like it.

                          As one of the posters above mentioned, we have a ton of options. So good to have our level of mobility.
                          We could end up going any which way.
                          Siakam and Fred are a few years ahead of the other guys, but barring unforeseen opportunities I think they give those guys 1-2 more seasons at minimum before they consider reloading with the younger OG/GTJ/4 guys. You just don't bail on prime, good players unless you're getting better now. It's teams that are stuck on the court or on the cap sheet that unload guys and go young. Raptors aren't there.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • S.R. wrote: View Post
                            ...You just don't bail on prime, good players unless you're getting better now...
                            And there is good reason to expect all of the rotation players (and the newer depth pieces) to be getting better now. Even Siakim will be on the court (estimated) by July, working on his game. There is time for his conditioning to be back to peak levels and for him to expand his skill set. All of the young guys, Flynn, Harris, Trent, OG, Watanabee and Boucher as well can reasonably be expected to improve, as can Freddy. Whoever gets drafted at #4 will likely contribute and having a center and a viable backup will help Fred and Spicy operate inside. If Lowry comes back, that won't make the team worse.

                            Great Expectations for 2021/2022

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                            • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmb4Wr9__NI

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                              • Puffer wrote: View Post

                                And there is good reason to expect all of the rotation players (and the newer depth pieces) to be getting better now. Even Siakim will be on the court (estimated) by July, working on his game. There is time for his conditioning to be back to peak levels and for him to expand his skill set. All of the young guys, Flynn, Harris, Trent, OG, Watanabee and Boucher as well can reasonably be expected to improve, as can Freddy. Whoever gets drafted at #4 will likely contribute and having a center and a viable backup will help Fred and Spicy operate inside. If Lowry comes back, that won't make the team worse.

                                Great Expectations for 2021/2022
                                exactly it is too early to make that shift towards a rebuild you gotta play it out one more year.

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