Game #20: Toronto Raptors 126 - Charlotte Hornets 113

[KeonClark]

And that argument is wrong and avoiding the real issue in my opinion.

BadDinosaur's thread is falling on deaf ears. He is sad dinosaur.

[DanH]

I've presented my argument. You're not actually open to the idea of bringing JV off the bench so it's a pointless discussion. I'm just going to wait and see what happens now with the lineup or trades.

And the numbers do agree with me, it's about how you interpret them and what numbers you look at. The problem is you want it to be an effort issue.

Is that the problem? Prove it to me. Explain the numbers I presented, as context to your numbers in your argument. Is it just a wild coincidence that both the starters as constructed, and other variations of the starters, including your proposed small ball starting lineup, are significantly worse in 1st and 3rd Q's than they are in the 2nd and 4th?

I love that I present an argument, and the only explanation can be my incredible bias, while you present an argument, and it's the real issue, and we'll just ignore any counter arguments anyone might make.

[MixxAOR]

Isn't that somewhat of a good thing? I swear everyone used to say when the whistle goes away in the playoffs Demar won't be able to score. Well it looks like this season he will.

Yeah as long he doesnt play timid and shoots jumpers instead of driving

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I've presented my argument. You're not actually open to the idea of bringing JV off the bench so it's a pointless discussion. I'm just going to wait and see what happens now with the lineup or trades.

And the numbers do agree with me, it's about how you interpret them and what numbers you look at. The problem is you want it to be an effort issue.

[DanH]

And that argument is wrong and avoiding the real issue in my opinion.

Which is interesting to me. Which of those numbers do you feel are not representing reality? What explanation do you have for those numbers if they are in fact representing what happened? How does your theory that 1st and 3rd Q's are not mostly about effort/focus/non-lineup-factors jive with the results your preferred lineup has posted in those periods?

Come on man, enlighten me. Seriously. You build a lot of your arguments on stats, you know how to use them and debate them. Explain the insignificance of that evidence to me. I want to understand why the argument is "wrong" and definitively not "the real issue." There has to be a reason, right? Besides the numbers not agreeing with you. Right?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

And that argument is wrong and avoiding the real issue in my opinion.

[DanH]

I have never said that.

Read my post again. I said it's not "just" effort. Effort is somewhat of an issue but for me the lineup itself is the bigger problem. If the problem was just effort then the issue of poor defense would be reflected in every lineup that includes Lowry/DD/Ibaka which is not the case.

Except the argument is not that KL/DD/SI/JV are always lacking effort. Just quite often, to open each half, they come out soft and don't play hard at first, as they "feel out" the opposition. It's very difficult to isolate for that statistically, but at the least, quarter break splits suggest the story is similar with a small ball lineup (the combined 1st and 3rd Q net rating for the small ball look is -2, which is better than the starters in those Q's but not exactly evidence of this only being a lineup thing, especially since most of those minutes would come after like 5-6 minutes of that "feeling out" is done).

And in 2nd Q's, the starting lineup 4-some (leaving SF aside, though OG has been awesome there) has killed it in 2nd Q's, with a crazy good +31.2 net rating in 46 minutes (a small portion of their sample, but a decent sample for a lineup at this point in the season). If the lineup was just fundamentally flawed, they'd suck all the time.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know for sure that effort isn't part of the problem?

I have never said that.

Read my post again. I said it's not "just" effort. Effort is somewhat of an issue but for me the lineup itself is the bigger problem. If the problem was just effort then the issue of poor defense would be reflected in every lineup that includes Lowry/DD/Ibaka which is not the case.

[GOLDBLUM]

Isn't that somewhat of a good thing? I swear everyone used to say when the whistle goes away in the playoffs Demar won't be able to score. Well it looks like this season he will.

Maybe he won't be a historically bad shooter in the playoffs this year?
Maybe instead of having spent his whole regular season...
all of his reps and effort, jumping into guys to create contact and draw the foul...
maybe, just maybe, he'll actually be able to just score.

[IMG]

[golden]

Try starting a different unit. This one is problematic. The 1st and 3rd quarter starts aren't just "effort" or all this intangible stuff that people want to pretend it is.

Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know for sure that effort isn't part of the problem?

[G__Deane]

I know. Just bring JV off the bench, and start Poetl. Everyone knows he needs to get stronger. Imagine the exercise he will get playing against Howard, Gortat, Damarcus Cousins, Drummond etc. Sarc/

You can really build your muscles and stamina constantly getting back up off the floor ......

[Puffer]

Bebe is a third string centre who does what a third string centre does. Provides insurance but expectations are low. He was a lottery pick who really should have been picked in the late first round or early second. Poeltl is our back up and possibly our future starter but he does need to get stronger, stop getting into foul trouble and needs to hit his free throws.

I know. Just bring JV off the bench, and start Poetl. Everyone knows he needs to get stronger. Imagine the exercise he will get playing against Howard, Gortat, Damarcus Cousins, Drummond etc. Sarc/

[GLF]

Derozan with 30 points but barely went to the line. Lately he hasn't been drawing fouls

Isn't that somewhat of a good thing? I swear everyone used to say when the whistle goes away in the playoffs Demar won't be able to score. Well it looks like this season he will.

[Hotshot]

Bebe is a third string centre who does what a third string centre does. Provides insurance but expectations are low. He was a lottery pick who really should have been picked in the late first round or early second. Poeltl is our back up and possibly our future starter but he does need to get stronger, stop getting into foul trouble and needs to hit his free throws.

[G__Deane]

Try starting a different unit. This one is problematic. The 1st and 3rd quarter starts aren't just "effort" or all this intangible stuff that people want to pretend it is.

Isn't there a whole other thread where that's been gone over? And over and over .... and over .....