Everything 2018 Off Season

[LJ2]

I can understand trading Lowry in a mini-rebuild, if DeMar is also on the way out. But the only reason you trade Lowry is to turn the offense over to younger guys and develop them, and you can't do that with DeMar still on the roster.

Nothing mini about trading Lowry. And whichever direction the team goes they should be going at it assertively. Lastly, even a teardown can take place over a couple of seasons. We know the rebuild will take a few years.

[Demographic Shift]

Another way to look at trade partners could be..... which NBA GMs are on the hot seat to win now?. Thibs has to be at the top of that list.

Denver s GM has to be feeling some heat as well..just to get into the playoffs after falling short the last two years with expectations they would get there....

After more of the same in Orlando former Raps Front office guy Jeff Weltman might be looking to signal a change in direction from circling the drain for the last few years.

And Charlotte has characteristics of both Denver and Orlando.

Besides Thibs....Ujiri has potential dance partners.

[DanH]

I’d prefer, Tobias Harris, sign and trade for a Avery Bradly and 11th pick. They might have to agree on this trade at the draft and wait until free agency starts to get the deal done. I don’t know if that is kosher or not.

It's fine, it's just super difficult to pull off. Because Bradley can then hold the deal hostage and ask for more money in his contract.

[planetmars]

Denver's an interesting team. Denver wants to win. And they don't mind older veterans (otherwise why spend the money on Millsap last year). Wonder if they would have any interest in Lowry?

Lowry for Faried+Arthur+Murray?

Murray would be the prize for the Raptors. More so than any pick I would imagine. Arthur is an expiring (he picked up his option) so we could move him in a different deal for a team looking to shed salary at the deadline or something. We could use the PF depth regardless.

[DanH]

Denver's an interesting team. Denver wants to win. And they don't mind older veterans (otherwise why spend the money on Millsap last year). Wonder if they would have any interest in Lowry?

Lowry for Faried+Arthur+Murray?

Murray would be the prize for the Raptors. More so than any pick I would imagine. Arthur is an expiring (he picked up his option) so we could move him in a different deal for a team looking to shed salary at the deadline or something. We could use the PF depth regardless.

That would be great, but Denver has big money issues coming and I don't know if they make a move like that taking on money, short term and next summer. I would think the obvious contract they'd want to be rid of is the Plumlee one, but I could be wrong.

[Other Scott]

Correct, yes, this is what I think.

I respectfully disagree. Not that Lowry's better, I can definitely be convinced and I know the on/off numbers historically. But that the gap is that substantial.

When it comes down to it, Lowry is going to his age 33 season and has one elite skill, 3 point shooting. His passing and court vision are very good, above average for point guards, same with his defense. Put all that together you have a very good to great player. But the problem with Lowry last season compared to previous years is that the driving didn't have the same efficiency it used to. He's losing the speed and the legs a little bit. He wasn't getting to the foul line at nearly the rate he used to, and for the most part he stayed outside. He's a limited isolation scorer at this point in his career. That doesn't mean he can't create off the dribble, but he's more limited in that regard than he used to be.

Meanwhile, that's exactly what Derozan is elite at. And you can say, well we want the team to move away from isolation scoring - that's the old Raptors. Ball movement is where it's at and Derozan without spacing doesn't offer much there.

The problem with the old Raptors offense was it was unbalanced. The ball was always in the stars hands, so if you loaded up on them you were set. What the team risks without Derozan, or a Derozan type that can really create 1 on 1 is that teams will load up the other way. They'll stay tight to shooters, switch everyone, and guard everyone too closely to get the space for that passing offense. They'll play them like Houston played the Warriors, and the Warriors offense looked bad at times - and the Raptors-sans-Derozan don't have anywhere near the isolation, one on one threats that the Warriors had in Durant and Steph.

There's only one player in the Raptors lineup that has a good shot at beating that type of offense. It's Jonas Valanciunas. If you switch on to Jonas he can kill you, so yes, he's the player that will require a double team if the Raptors play the Lowry-JV pick and roll to switch him onto a smaller point guard. The problem still with Jonas is he's not capable enough with the ball yet to make teams pay out of the double team. They'll double him from the weak side, he'll dribble twice, pass it to the strong side, and by the time the Raptors can take advantage of the mismatch and swing the ball strong to weak, the defense will have recovered.

Kyle Lowry may well be a better player than DeRozan, but I think the Raptors offense will take a major step back without that player to stop teams from playing one-on-one and staying close to shooters. Derozan was and remains that threat that opens the floor up for the rest of the Raptors. The Golden State - Houston series proved that isolation scoring is still valuable in this league, and unless the Raptors can replace that if they trade Derozan I think they'll take just as much of a step back as if they replaced Lowry. Given that the team has very good built in point guard replacements with FVV and Delon and nothing near a Demar equivalent, I'd say they'll take more of a step back without Derozan.

[golden]

Denver s GM has to be feeling some heat as well..just to get into the playoffs after falling short the last two years with expectations they would get there....

After more of the same in Orlando former Raps Front office guy Jeff Weltman might be looking to signal a change in direction from circling the drain for the last few years.

And Charlotte has characteristics of both Denver and Orlando.

Besides Thibs....Ujiri has potential dance partners.

Yep. Still, nothing compares to the pressure that's on Thibs right now. Two #1 overall, ROY players, who should be rising superstars. A blockbuster trade splurging assets to acquire a top five 2-way player in Jimmy Butler and a win-now veteran, Taj Gibson. A bad FA signing in Jeff Teague.

Thibs has nobody to blame but himself because he is President and coach (but that's another story, because that's just a huge conflict of interest in the eyes of the players). All Thibs has to show for what he's been given is a first round sweep. lol.

[Barolt]

I'm not going to quote reply that monster post, but I wrote about that a week or two back on the front page. https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2018...or-big-change/

Basically, I think that was true in the past - the Raptors didn't have enough shot creation to make up for losing DeMar. I don't think it's true anymore. Between Lowry, FVV, Wright, OG and Siakam showing room to grow, JV's improvement, and if you add a lottery pick in a DeMar trade, particularly Doncic, that helps too. There is other shot creation available, and the Cleveland series showed that DeMar can actually be an impediment when the rest of the offense is rolling.

[TrueTorontoFan]

to me if you can get doncic you can give up demar. the kid looks good enough and provides enough of the playmaking, passing and DECENT shot creation that its fine. I do kind of see the kid as a 6.8 point guard, but thats ok. if he plays off ball with kyle. what last year proved was.... we should have been spreading the ball around and be more system oriented for years and years and years.

[Other Scott]

I'm not going to quote reply that monster post, but I wrote about that a week or two back on the front page. https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2018...or-big-change/

Basically, I think that was true in the past - the Raptors didn't have enough shot creation to make up for losing DeMar. I don't think it's true anymore. Between Lowry, FVV, Wright, OG and Siakam showing room to grow, JV's improvement, and if you add a lottery pick in a DeMar trade, particularly Doncic, that helps too. There is other shot creation available, and the Cleveland series showed that DeMar can actually be an impediment when the rest of the offense is rolling.

I think the Cleveland series showed a bad version of Demar can be an impediment, which sure. While you can't exactly throw out Demar's series versus Cleveland, as that's absolutely a factor in his value that he was unplayable in that series, I think it's fair to say that's not exactly the Demar we saw throughout the season.

That Cavs defense was trash though, so yes, while the Raptors offense was effective, I think it's a little like piling up stats against a bad team on that end. I don't think it's a good measure of how they'd face against well organized teams.

[Barolt]

I think the Cleveland series showed a bad version of Demar can be an impediment, which sure. While you can't exactly throw out Demar's series versus Cleveland, as that's absolutely a factor in his value that he was unplayable in that series, I think it's fair to say that's not exactly the Demar we saw throughout the season.

That Cavs defense was trash though, so yes, while the Raptors offense was effective, I think it's a little like piling up stats against a bad team on that end. I don't think it's a good measure of how they'd face against well organized teams.

But that's the DeMar that, historically, shows up against good teams more often than not.

[S.R.]

I'm not going to quote reply that monster post, but I wrote about that a week or two back on the front page. https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2018...or-big-change/

Basically, I think that was true in the past - the Raptors didn't have enough shot creation to make up for losing DeMar. I don't think it's true anymore. Between Lowry, FVV, Wright, OG and Siakam showing room to grow, JV's improvement, and if you add a lottery pick in a DeMar trade, particularly Doncic, that helps too. There is other shot creation available, and the Cleveland series showed that DeMar can actually be an impediment when the rest of the offense is rolling.

DeMar getting sat in the playoffs (again) really ought to put any DeMar vs. Lowry value debates to rest.

[Other Scott]

If you think Demar's ceiling in the playoffs is lower based on his historical performance, that's a fair opinion to have.

I think he can be the same player in the playoffs as he is in the regular season, but that's just more based on faith and my personal opinions that playoff's aren't as inherently different from the regular season as everyone makes them out to be. And I think this season's Lowry playoff performance helps my argument there a bit.

[A.I]

If you think Demar's ceiling in the playoffs is lower based on his historical performance, that's a fair opinion to have.

I think he can be the same player in the playoffs as he is in the regular season, but that's just more based on faith and my personal opinions that playoff's aren't as inherently different from the regular season as everyone makes them out to be. And I think this season's Lowry playoff performance helps my argument there a bit.

I credit Lowry’s performance to lower minutes and staying healthy. Last several seasons he either played heavy minutes in the regular season or he was injured during/right before the Playoffs.

[MACK11]

I think the Cleveland series showed a bad version of Demar can be an impediment, which sure. While you can't exactly throw out Demar's series versus Cleveland, as that's absolutely a factor in his value that he was unplayable in that series, I think it's fair to say that's not exactly the Demar we saw throughout the season.

That Cavs defense was trash though, so yes, while the Raptors offense was effective, I think it's a little like piling up stats against a bad team on that end. I don't think it's a good measure of how they'd face against well organized teams.

This is the DeMar that shows up in the playoffs every single year. Idk how you can just say its the Cleveland series.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk