Everything 2018 Off Season

[Truth Teller]

It's crazy that Spurs fans think that Derozan plus OG is a fantasy return for Kawhi. It's like best case scenario for them lmao

They basically accepted that Kawhi will never wear a Spurs jersey again.

I think we should buy low or don't buy at all. Getting Kawhi is at worst a 1 year rental. No reason to give up the farm.

[white men can't jump]

It's crazy that Spurs fans think that Derozan plus OG is a fantasy return for Kawhi. It's like best case scenario for them lmao

Of course. The Spurs are in about as weak a position as possible. Their fans are probably worried they might end up with something awful. Like if we traded them Powell, Miles and a 1st.

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[Truth Teller]

2019 and 2020 1st round picks? i don't know. But 1st first round picks are more important to this team than OG and Siakam. I'd offer OG and Siakam first before any 1st round picks.

2019 would be a late pick. I wouldn't give up the 2020, unless they can keep either Derozan or OG. I don't want the Raptors to not have lottery picks.

[golden]

It's crazy that Spurs fans think that Derozan plus OG is a fantasy return for Kawhi. It's like best case scenario for them lmao

Not really. It’s a 1 year car lease that you might not even get a chance to drive. Sure it’s a Lamborghini, but it’s just been in the shop and you don’t get a chance to test drive it to see if it works. And you’re trading in your Porsche and most of your savings in the bank for that rental that might never even happen.

[white men can't jump]

2019 would be a late pick. I wouldn't give up the 2020, unless they can keep either Derozan or OG. I don't want the Raptors to not have lottery picks.

Can't give up 2020 anyway. Cannot trade consecutive 1st round picks.

So we could do 2019 and 2021. Or 2019 and right to swap in 2020 or some such.

2019 pick is definitely expendable. Anything after that is a bit harder to part with given the uncertainty that we could maybe be rebuilding in 2020 or 2021.

[Truth Teller]

Can't give up 2020 anyway. Cannot trade consecutive 1st round picks.

So we could do 2019 and 2021. Or 2019 and right to swap in 2020 or some such.

2019 pick is definitely expendable. Anything after that is a bit harder to part with given the uncertainty that we could maybe be rebuilding in 2020 or 2021.

Is that a new rule to protect dumb teams from themselves?

[DogeLover1234]

Are a lot of people really saying that JV is a more valuable asset to the Raptors (and Spurs) than DeRozan? Or are you saying you wouldn't do the trade if Derozan is involved?

Anyways, almost any version of this trade I do:
DD, OG, Norm, 2019 1st for Kawhi and Pau? Absolutely.

We've learned from Paul George that once you get the players there, it makes it a lot easier to resign them. And Raptors with Kawhi is going to be a much better basketball situation that can produce a contender than OKC + George. Especially since the Raptors will have lots of 2020 cap space even with a huge Kawhi deal in place (most of which they'll need to use on their very good young role players mind you).

The sticking point for me in the trade is not OG, but if it's OG plus a 2020 first. Because that pick HAS to be protected. At least top 10, probably lottery. And that's going to be where the trade talks will get hung up. If I'm the Spurs I want an unprotected 2020 Raptors pick in the deal. Maybe the Raptors will be able to talk them down to a protected pick if the Spurs run out of other trade options.

Anyways I'm not on board with this hesitancy for the deal. In my eyes, by far the highest percentage path to a championship team is with taking your shot at having a resigned Kawhi and 2020 cap space - if you swing a miss and he leaves, then you're tearing down minus OG. That hurts, but tearing down is always going to be lower percentage than having that top 5 player on your team, and sometimes you have to take those swings to be successful.

I think you have to look at Paul George and Kawhi differently. George never would have left the Pacers if he could have gotten the super-max, Kawhi doesn't care for it; he is totally different.

I think it would be foolish to look at a Kawhi trade as anything other than a rental; which isn't necessarily entirely bad. The question I would ask him is not if he would consider staying but if he would play hard next season.

If you already have a cap of two years for this core, I see no problem shortening the time restraint for a much better core, considering it seems there is no way Masai is breaking up the core in a retool this off-season. It would be a funky rebuild when Kawhi leaves next off-season, especially if you lose one of the important young guys, but that would be the case in two years anyways, granted in that scenario you have a better idea of what the young guys (namely Siakam and OG) will look like.

A Kawhi rebuild isn't all that bad either, with many teams stockpiling cap space for the 2019 free agency, Raps can trade Lowry to whoever misses out for probably a pretty decent return. Gives you a good chance to see who is worth keeping on beyond 2020, where Raps then become a player in free agency, draft/develop and trades seeing as they have cap space, some solid to very good rotation players and all their picks going forwards.

Although I don't believe for a second Kawhi would end up resigning, lets let the imagination run wild for a second. Masai trades DD+Wright+unprotected 2020 pick for Kawhi Leonard, the world blows up at the sheer stupidity of Masai Ujiri. Greg Popovich and Tim Duncan share a bottle of fine wine and maniacal laugh on the San Antonio River Walk. But Wait. Kawhi resigns next offseason after LeBron and new friend LaVar make one too many jokes about Kawhi's "normal" collar and plan a BBB collab on air in game seven of the Raptors-Warriors finals, right before Kawhi steals the ball from Curry on the last possession and passes it up to JV for a game winning 3. Flash forward to the 2020 off-season; where, with few players under contract, Masai signs none other than Anthony Davis at 12:01 AM on July 1. Going into 2020-2021 season, Raptors start 5 all stars: Fred VanVleet, Kawhi Leonard, OG Anunoby, Pascal Siakam, Anthony Davis. Trust Masai

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Is that a new rule to protect dumb teams from themselves?

It's not new, been around for like 30 years. It was made because of a Cavs GM, Ted Stepien, who traded away 5 straight 1st round picks, completely fucking the team's future.

So yeah, it's for protecting dumb teams from themselves. Or more accurately, protecting franchises from dumb or desperate general managers.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Fwiw I think if we were offering DeMar and OG, Kawhi would already be a Raptor. That's a ridiculously good return for San Antonio. All-star with basically a perfect health record and zero baggage as well as an excellent prospect for Kawhi.

[DanH]

Fwiw I think if we were offering DeMar and OG, Kawhi would already be a Raptor. That's a ridiculously good return for San Antonio. All-star with basically a perfect health record and zero baggage as well as an excellent prospect for Kawhi.

Based on the short conversation Lowe and Windhorst had on his pod, that's probably the current sticking point. Ujiri has offered DD plus a prospect plus a pick, but SA wants that prospect to be OG and Masai isn't budging. Hopefully it ends with Masai adding another non-OG prospect as a middle ground, or the Spurs just caving as other suitors keep dropping off (as Windhorst suggests has been happening).

[DanH]

It's not new, been around for like 30 years. It was made because of a Cavs GM, Ted Stepien, who traded away 5 straight 1st round picks, completely fucking the team's future.

So yeah, it's for protecting dumb teams from themselves. Or more accurately, protecting franchises from dumb or desperate general managers.

He was actually the owner of the Cavs, and the league instituted the rule to protect new owners coming into the league who might not be super familiar with the game - such as the next owner who purchased the Cavs from Stepien only to find out they had no draft picks forever and a day. The league actually created new bonus draft picks to give to the Cavs to give them a chance, and obviously never wanted to have to do that again, so instituted the rule.

[DanH]

2019 and 2020 1st round picks? i don't know. But 1st first round picks are more important to this team than OG and Siakam. I'd offer OG and Siakam first before any 1st round picks.

You'd offer OG AND Siakam before even offering the 2019 pick? That's nuts.

2020 and beyond, there's definitely logic to that, though OG versus 2020 is a hard call.

But 2019 is basically guaranteed to be in the late 20's even with the team as is, never mind with Kawhi. OG's value is definitely above and beyond that pick.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Based on the short conversation Lowe and Windhorst had on his pod, that's probably the current sticking point. Ujiri has offered DD plus a prospect plus a pick, but SA wants that prospect to be OG and Masai isn't budging. Hopefully it ends with Masai adding another non-OG prospect as a middle ground, or the Spurs just caving as other suitors keep dropping off (as Windhorst suggests has been happening).

Zach Lowe was just throwing out an offer of Siakam+DD+1st, that wasn't based on any kind of sources. Windhorst just said OG had to be in the trade (again not sure if that's based on a source or just his own evaluation of it).

Should be interesting to see what happens if anything. The fact that the Raptors can put DeRozan in the trade makes it very difficult for any other team to make a competitive offer if the Spurs are trying to be good next year (which they likely are), since basically no one else can risk giving up an all-star for a potential rental.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Idk why but I've been getting the feeling DeMar actually won't be in the deal if it happens.

I see it being either Ibaka + OG + Siakam/Poeltl + Powell + 1st with Pau also coming back or JV + OG + Siakam + 1st with no extra money coming back.

[DanH]

Idk why but I've been getting the feeling DeMar actually won't be in the deal if it happens.

I see it being either Ibaka + OG + Siakam/Poeltl + Powell + 1st with Pau also coming back or JV + OG + Siakam + 1st with no extra money coming back.

I don't know why either. I doubt offers like that would have had the Spurs hold out on other teams to the point that they've given up on the chase.

The one thing, the only thing that separates the Raptors from other teams in this bidding war (in a good way) is their apparent willingness to trade a star. Outside of that their package just doesn't stack up.