Everything 2018 Off Season

[S.R.]

That's an arbitrary measure, don't you think?

Bottom line is that the Pacers did a better job than the Raptors against the best player in the world.

Yeah, it's how they've lost that's been the most frustrating part of the Raptors' playoff exits the last 5 years. They've either lost to lower seeds or they've had multiple quit games against Cleveland. If they lost to the 2nd round against Cleveland but in a series just like the Pacers played, going down in game 7 by just a couple of buckets, the feeling and the reality would be a lot different. Then the number 1 seed Raptors really would be *this close* to beating Lebron in the postseason.

Right now they don't just have to figure out how to get a bit better, they have to figure out why this team keeps rolling over during the most important games of the year. Multiple quit games in each of the last 3 Cavs series, it's not an aberration there's something weird with the core/backbone of the team vs. Lebron.

[Nilanka]

Yeah, it's how they've lost that's been the most frustrating part of the Raptors' playoff exits the last 5 years. They've either lost to lower seeds or they've had multiple quit games against Cleveland. If they lost to the 2nd round against Cleveland but in a series just like the Pacers played, going down in game 7 by just a couple of buckets, the feeling and the reality would be a lot different. Then the number 1 seed Raptors really would be *this close* to beating Lebron in the postseason.

Right now they don't just have to figure out how to get a bit better, they have to figure out why this team keeps rolling over during the most important games of the year. Multiple quit games in each of the last 3 Cavs series, it's not an aberration there's something weird with the core/backbone of the team vs. Lebron.

Something very few people are willing to admit.

[Puffer]

That's an arbitrary measure, don't you think?

Bottom line is that the Pacers did a better job than the Raptors against the best player in the world.

Now who is using arbitrary measures? You say regular season doesn't matter, only playoff performance Okay. Raptors made it to the second round, Pacers didn't. Now you say, Pacers did a better job than the Raptors against the best player in the world," so the measure isn't playoff performance, it's playoff performance against LeBron. How has every other team in the NBA done against LeBron over the last 3 years?

[DanH]

I'm.... I'm scared, guys.


From what Masai said, it sounds like they want to stay the course..... and thus, we become a treadmill team. That's the last thing I want as a fan. Staying the course gets mundane after a while, especially when you feel like you can't get over the hump..... it leaves us with no real future after all our big guys contracts are up. A shake-up of some sort is needed here..... and it's 100 percent time to move on from Casey. It's been 7 years & he has grown as a Coach, but it's not enough anymore..... we've made excuse after excuse after excuse for the guy. It is time to let him move on & for us to give something new a try.

In regards to making a trade, I have no idea what Masai could move & what he would want to move..... my biggest fear is that he's looking to deal Jonas to free up cap to bring back Freddy while making Ibaka the full time Center next to Siakam..... and we sign another PF with our left over cap space as a rental.... and that along with maybe another minor move is all that we do to change things. That's not enough..... we need to get to another level.

We need to clarify what treadmill team means.

I never, ever took it to mean a 50+ win team perennially near the top of the conference, winning at least a round every year and being a threat for the ECF (give or take some seeding) every year. Definitely not a team that has progressed its win total over the past 5 years from high-40's to high-50's, showing significant improvement in point differential as well.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Psychology is something that is very powerful in sports.

DeMar and Kyle don't think they can beat LeBron. Look at their comments after the series last year. They don't believe they can win and so not only do they fail to win, they get embarrassed repeatedly.

Not saying that the power of belief is enough, but without it you have no chance. You have to have confidence at this level to achieve anything and these guys don't have any confidence that they can beat LBJ.

It's why we've seen weird teams give LeBron a bit of trouble sometimes. Like Indiana this year or Chicago a couple years ago. Not great teams but they're gritty and think they can actually beat LeBron. Watch, Boston will make it difficult at least despite a huge talent disparity.

[Nilanka]

Now who is using arbitrary measures? You say regular season doesn't matter, only playoff performance Okay. Raptors made it to the second round, Pacers didn't. Now you say, Pacers did a better job than the Raptors against the best player in the world," so the measure isn't playoff performance, it's playoff performance against LeBron. How has every other team in the NBA done against LeBron over the last 3 years?

You're just counting rounds again...the arbitrary measure I was speaking of. That's just the luck of seeding to explain that.

Anyway, if you can honestly tell me that there is no difference between the way the Raps lose to Lebron, vs. the rest of the league, there isn't anything left for us to discuss.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

We need to clarify what treadmill team means.

I never, ever took it to mean a 50+ win team perennially near the top of the conference, winning at least a round every year and being a threat for the ECF (give or take some seeding) every year. Definitely not a team that has progressed its win total over the past 5 years from high-40's to high-50's, showing significant improvement in point differential as well.

I mean at the end of the day we aren't that different from a traditional treadmill team.

Think about it. Let's say hypothetically the Cavs were the #1 seed. And we won about 48 games and got the 4 seed. We win a tough first round series in 5 or 6 then get swept by Cleveland... is that a treadmill team? Because the result is almost the same. We're functionally not really different from a 45-49 win 4th/5th seed because we're basically guaranteed to lose in round 2 if we face LeBron.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

You're just counting rounds again...the arbitrary measure I was speaking of. That's just the luck of seeding to explain that.

Anyway, if you can honestly tell me that there is no difference between the way the Raps lose to Lebron, vs. the rest of the league, there isn't anything left for us to discuss.

Some people just want to be blind homers for their team. I support Man United and a lot of the fans are similar. Mourinho apologists, where he plays crap football and they just give the excuse of "Look we're in 2nd!" like that means anything when all the teams around us play way better football than we do.

Sorry, ranting about another sport. All of my teams are the fucking same right now. Vikings got embarrassed by Philly in the NFL as well...

[Other Scott]

So the definition of treadmill is everyone without a clear path to a championship within the next 5 years? Man, there's a lot of teams on that treadmill. Probably including the league darling San Antonio Spurs even with Kawhi and the play-the-right-way Utah Jazz.

[DanH]

I mean at the end of the day we aren't that different from a traditional treadmill team.

Think about it. Let's say hypothetically the Cavs were the #1 seed. And we won about 48 games and got the 4 seed. We win a tough first round series in 5 or 6 then get swept by Cleveland... is that a treadmill team? Because the result is almost the same. We're functionally not really different from a 45-49 win 4th/5th seed because we're basically guaranteed to lose in round 2 if we face LeBron.

That's true of every team in the East. And most teams in the West.

We're functionally different from those teams because most years, we will not be lined up with a team as good as LeBron's in the 2nd round. And because those 45 win teams are significantly more likely to lose in the 2nd round against a non-LeBron opponent than we are.

I also disagree with your assessment that we are basically guaranteed to lose to LeBron - this year should have been a competitive series, barring some truly horrendous coaching on Casey's part, which is a big improvement over previous seasons when we certainly had no chance against LeBron.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

So the definition of treadmill is everyone without a clear path to a championship within the next 5 years? Man, there's a lot of teams on that treadmill. Probably including the league darling San Antonio Spurs even with Kawhi and the play-the-right-way Utah Jazz.

For me treadmill is repeating the same thing without any change in your actual position (i.e. what happens when you're literally on a treadmill). In that sense, yes we are a treadmill team. We're running faster on the treadmill than a team like Detroit or Charlotte but we're still not getting anywhere. This team is not really much closer to getting to the finals than it was in 2013-14. With no clear path to getting better.

[DanH]

For me treadmill is repeating the same thing without any change in your actual position (i.e. what happens when you're literally on a treadmill). In that sense, yes we are a treadmill team. We're running faster on the treadmill than a team like Detroit or Charlotte but we're still not getting anywhere. This team is not really much closer to getting to the finals than it was in 2013-14. With no clear path to getting better.

If we won the championship every year are we a treadmill team?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

That's true of every team in the East. And most teams in the West.

We're functionally different from those teams because most years, we will not be lined up with a team as good as LeBron's in the 2nd round. And because those 45 win teams are significantly more likely to lose in the 2nd round against a non-LeBron opponent than we are.

I also disagree with your assessment that we are basically guaranteed to lose to LeBron - this year should have been a competitive series, barring some truly horrendous coaching on Casey's part, which is a big improvement over previous seasons when we certainly had no chance against LeBron.

Another key factor to being a treadmill team is having no clear path to improvement, which we don't. That's why Boston and Philly don't fit into this category, because you can easily see how they jump from where they are to title contention.

My assessment on LeBron is correct until proven otherwise. First time we basically got a gentleman's sweep with them gifting us two wins at home (go look at Scola's comments that year), then we got swept in 2017, and swept again in 2018.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that is progress. Feel free to do that if you want.

[DanH]

Another key factor to being a treadmill team is having no clear path to improvement, which we don't. That's why Boston and Philly don't fit into this category, because you can easily see how they jump from where they are to title contention.

I think Boston and Philly don't fit the category because they won 50+ games and a playoff round.

I also don't think it's as obvious as you make it out that they can be leaps and bounds better than they are.

[Other Scott]

But the team has gotten better pretty much every year. With the exception of 2015-16 where I think Cleveland just didn't take the Raptors seriously for a couple games, (the 4 games the Raptors lost were utter blowouts), they have improved each and every year of the Masai/Casey/DeRozan/Lowry era.

I think once we stop seeing improvement, that's the time we can say there's no clear path to improvement. But we haven't seen that yet.