Everything 2018 Off Season

[KeonClark]

I should add the one comparable in terms of impact in the big team sports to the NBA superstar would be the NFL quarterback

[Scraptor]

I should add the one comparable in terms of impact in the big team sports to the NBA superstar would be the NFL quarterback

Probably the best comparable and even he only plays half the game.

[DanH]

Probably the best comparable and even he only plays half the game.

Yeah, NFL QB and NHL goalie is closest. But again, both tend to affect play around half the game.

[MixxAOR]

Ohhh yea. I forgot about that

well they are both nobodies so no surprise there lol

[Puffer]

It's really actually super easy to see who has a bigger impact and NBA players have a far larger impact on their teams than NHL players.

Consider, you've equated the two scenarios, when really the Leafs are adding a superstar to their existing core for nothing but cash, while the Raptors swapped out an All-NBA talent for Kawhi. The resulting optimism for each team takes a leap, and we'll accept your premise that said leap is about equal - meaning that upgrading by the difference between Kawhi and DeMar is basically equal to just adding a superstar in hockey. Meaning, obviously, that Kawhi's raw value far exceeds Tavares', which is the correct conclusion.

I would point out (maybe not that it needs pointing out) that the total score of an NHL game is a lot lower. I don't know Tavares from a hole in the ground because I don't follow hockey, but if he is truly an eliate goal getter (Bobby Orr, Gretzky, etc.) that can have a pretty big impact that is larger in the NHL, I would have thought. Average total goals scored per game last year was only 5.45. Average team goals was obvioulsy 2.75. Only 2 guys in the top ten players got .5 goals per game or higher. They helped themselves with assists. The top ten point totals in the NHL (three guys tied for tenth) ranged from 227 to 271. The top 50 point totals were 168 and up. The guys who got 227 and up are almost on another planet.

I don't know if your argument about the relative weight of the method of acquiring the talent is valid since I don't understand the team situations and the limitations of opportunity. But you are pretty much bang on most of the time so I wouldn't bet on me instead of you in this discussion.

[KeonClark]

Yeah, NFL QB and NHL goalie is closest. But again, both tend to affect play around half the game.

I would say NHL goalie has lost its importancefrom eras past. Granted, your goalie better not suck, but gone are the days of Patrick Roy and dominik Hasek. Theres no clear tier of goalies that you know as you acquire them you're going to be elite, because they are so close and so much variance year to year. You cant say the same for lebron and Durant and Brady or Aaron Rodgers, those guys could probably take any teams roster to the playoffs overnight

[inthepaint]

I distilled a bunch of Raptors thoughts into 10 bold predictions in the upcoming season https://t.co/s9LkDx1ZCt

— William Lou (@william_lou) September 9, 2018


1. I don't believe Kawhi will get the MVP win, could be close.

2. There will problems with Ibaka always coming off the bench. I see him as a starter at times and backup at others. You want to keep the peace as well as win.

3. Unless OG takes a turn for the worse I don't see how the fans can turn on him. OG was a great defender and as long as he plays solid defence, he will be alright. I also think he might be averaging at least 10 points a game..

I actually think what he said about OG is unfortunately very plausible. A large part of the fanbase has a strong tendency to get really high on prospects, then really low/angry when said prospect doesn't meet the unrealistic expectations they set up to begin with.

I don't think it will necessarily happen next year, because he will still be in the rookie/sophomore honeymoon, but in a couple of years from now, especially if he's the only starter left from this group, I can see people irrationally souring up to him to go overhype the next new guy. It'd be unfair to OG, but people that will have been following his development will know that it will likely have more to do with the fanbase then with OG himself.

I agree with you that if he's an above average defender able to guard 1-4 reliably (and be a an average presence of offence), that's a good place for him to be in, and for the fanbase to expect. He's ceiling is sure higher than that, but like most rookies, he's got a ton of work (especially on the offensive end) to get there.

The neat thing is that even if he doesn't reach his ceiling (Kawhi-lite), he's already able to guard the best player (1 through 4) on the opposing team, plus space the floor on the offence. As long as he continues to do that, he's a starter caliber player on this league, that we drafted at 20, at age 20, with lots of room to grow. That alone is awesome.

[Hotshot]

OG projection is Nick Batum with better defence.

For a 23rd pick I would take that in a heart beat.

[Demographic Shift]

Yeah sorry but this is a losing argument ds. It's clear as day that the top tier talent on nba roster is much much more (for a lack of a better word) important than in the NHL, or any other sport for that matter.

The Vegas knights thing? Where your best player is maybe the 50th best player in the world and the rest of your roster came from other teams scrap heap going to the finals is a fine example of "well, that would NEVER happen in the nba"

I wasn’t talking about the Vegas golden knights or overall roster equality in the nhl or the like.

I was talking about how John Tavares, an NHL star, is carrying the same set of expectations to lead a team to the conference finals as another star player in another sport, Kawhi Leonard, is. They will be measured on how they lead or help their teams perform to those expectations. Both players are equally important to achieving the desired result of winning a championship.

[Demographic Shift]

It's really actually super easy to see who has a bigger impact and NBA players have a far larger impact on their teams than NHL players.

Consider, you've equated the two scenarios, when really the Leafs are adding a superstar to their existing core for nothing but cash, while the Raptors swapped out an All-NBA talent for Kawhi. The resulting optimism for each team takes a leap, and we'll accept your premise that said leap is about equal - meaning that upgrading by the difference between Kawhi and DeMar is basically equal to just adding a superstar in hockey. Meaning, obviously, that Kawhi's raw value far exceeds Tavares', which is the correct conclusion.

Regardless of how each player came to their current team...the premise of the discussion is that each player , Tavares and Leonard, will be measured on how they lead or help their teams win a championship. It’s not about goalies or playing time. It’s about making an impact with the team your now on with your play so that your team achieves better results than last go around and meets the expectations of winning a conference championship ..the Cup..or the NBA Finals. Both have equally big expectations on them.

Just saying ..oh yeah Kawahi is a bigger deal ...is just saying it. Both guys to steal the old TFC promotion are bloody big deals.

[DanH]

Regardless of how each player came to their current team...the premise of the discussion is that each player , Tavares and Leonard, will be measured on how they lead or help their teams win a championship. It’s not about goalies or playing time. It’s about making an impact with the team your now on with your play so that your team achieves better results than last go around and meets the expectations of winning a conference championship ..the Cup..or the NBA Finals. Both have equally big expectations on them.

Just saying ..oh yeah Kawahi is a bigger deal ...is just saying it. Both guys to steal the old TFC promotion are bloody big deals.

Yeah, except Tavares is expected to do so alongside one of the best star-studded young cores in the NHL. Heck, he's the second best player on the team. No one expects him to carry the team to the Finals, and if they fail to make it, no one (smart) will blame only Tavares. If the Raptors make noise, it will be largely because of Kawhi.

[Demographic Shift]

Yeah, except Tavares is expected to do so alongside one of the best star-studded young cores in the NHL. Heck, he's the second best player on the team. No one expects him to carry the team to the Finals, and if they fail to make it, no one (smart) will blame only Tavares. If the Raptors make noise, it will be largely because of Kawhi.

They are both expected to take their teams to the next level with their play. Lots of expectations on both guys.

And putting on my crusty hat..To me...Tavares is THE best player on that team right now. Mathews might catch him next year..prolly for sure the year after that....but right now the 27 year old man is a rung above the 20 year old phenom. How great is that. The Leafs 3 Centres could post 100 goals between them. Leonard will make guys like Pascal..OG and Freddy very very good
players along the way to the finals this year. It’s good to be a Toronto sports fan right now.

I need something like that after watching my Bills look like they are a favourite for the first overall pick in next year’s draft this aft.

[DanH]

They are both expected to take their teams to the next level with their play. Lots of expectations on both guys.

And putting on my crusty hat..To me...Tavares is THE best player on that team right now. Mathews might catch him next year..prolly for sure the year after that....but right now the 27 year old man is a rung above the 20 year old phenom. How great is that. The Leafs 3 Centres could post 100 goals between them. Leonard will make guys like Pascal..OG and Freddy very very good
players along the way to the finals this year. It’s good to be a Toronto sports fan right now.

I need something like that after watching my Bills look like they are a favourite for the first overall pick in next year’s draft this aft.

It's indeed a great year to be a TO sports fan. You are welcome to your player evaluations, but expectations do not determine player impact. Tavares adding to the narrative of a swiftly improving young team by adding an established talent (in a league where depth can be as valuable as star power) is nowhere near the equivalent of Kawhi Leonard replacing the incumbent most highly regarded star on the roster and moving the team from pretender to contender on his own.

Tavares is great. Heck, he's nearly as good as Matthews (though we'll see how this year goes, Matthews is like 12 years old so leaps can happen). But even in the NHL, where the very best stars don't have the impact of the NBA stars, he's not a top tier star. He's not a Crosby or McDavid. He's in the next tier down. And not at the top of that teir either.

This shouldn't reduce Leafs' fans expectations. They were a very good team last year, shed several of their problem players, had their young core get a year older and better, and added an established star talent for nothing but cap space. They have a real shot this year - not favourite status, but up there. They were headed this direction anyway, but this move accelerates the schedule for sure.

[golden]

Holy F. I posted a feel good photo of Kawhi and JT's jerseys expecting a few high fives to celebrate one of the best off-seasons in MLSE history.... and this board rages on that. LOL. I guess all that pent up venom that would have been unleashed on Casey, DeMar and Masai if they ran it back, had to go somewhere. Anyways, 2 days closer to training camp.......

[MixxAOR]

Holy F. I posted a feel good photo of Kawhi and JT's jerseys expecting a few high fives to celebrate one of the best off-seasons in MLSE history.... and this board rages on that. LOL. I guess all that pent up venom that would have been unleashed on Casey, DeMar and Masai if they ran it back, had to go somewhere. Anyways, 2 days closer to training camp.......

Off-season is too long