Everything 2018 Off Season

[Barolt]

Signing Carroll and trading for Ibaka weren't his two biggest moves. I wouldn't really even say that Ibaka was a mistake. Ross was kind of useless and the pick could have been Kuzma but we never know. Ibaka was a need. We needed a PF badly. I mean we were running out guys like 2Pat and Scola at that spot. Masai's original target was Millsap but Atlanta kept the value so high that nobody was able to get him.

Carroll was erased. We gave a pick to do it but that would have been the 29th pick in this last draft. I don't see anybody in the draft that will have that impact. And again the cap hit was completely erased with the trade.

His biggest moves in my opinion were the Gay trade and the Lowry signing (the first time around). He nailed those.

Outside of the Carroll signing his other biggest mistake in my opinion was not firing Casey after the Wizards sweep. Maybe that was a major miscalculation. Not sure. But it was definitely a mistake. Case for better or for worse kept getting better every year and lead us to 59 wins.

The Bargnani trade was like his single biggest move.

[planetmars]

The Bargnani trade was like his single biggest move.

I meant in terms of franchise altering decisions. Nothing beats the Bargnani trade in terms of what he got back for that contract.

But in terms of what he did for this franchise.. I would say the Gay trade and Lowry resigning had more of an impact. The GV trade probably had a bigger impact over the Bargnani trade as well since we got OG out of it.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

More like the next 12 months...

God, I'm already so apathetic for next season. I really hope we see a big move this summer.

Unfortunately we won't.

[white men can't jump]

Unfortunately we won't.

I'm not optimistic, but we'll see when free agency opens up.

I still think there's at least some chance, however small, that you could maybe find a deal in LA(or wherever) for DeMar where you are happy with the return.

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[DogeLover1234]

More like the next 12 months...

God, I'm already so apathetic for next season. I really hope we see a big move this summer.

Will be interesting to see what happens. Based on the last couple years it seems hard to get real good value trading into the draft on draft day, i wonder if it Masai can get decent value trading for future picks, even though it really gives no instant gratification. Seems like the only other option at this point is trading for flawed, depreciated assets like Wiggins or maybe Fultz. Really dont think Masai can get a budding star like some here expect, it takes really odd circumstances for those guys to get moved.

Im all for taking advantage of mediocre franchises willing to give up future picks for psudeo-stars (maybe sacto, nyk, orlando, etc.) and going after young underperforming guys who could use a change of scenery (Winslow, Hezonja, Stanley Johnson, etc.)

[golden]

The Bargnani trade was like his single biggest move.

The Gay trade followed by the non-Lowry trade are top 2.


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[white men can't jump]

Will be interesting to see what happens. Based on the last couple years it seems hard to get real good value trading into the draft on draft day, i wonder if it Masai can get decent value trading for future picks, even though it really gives no instant gratification. Seems like the only other option at this point is trading for flawed, depreciated assets like Wiggins or maybe Fultz. Really dont think Masai can get a budding star like some here expect, it takes really odd circumstances for those guys to get moved.

Im all for taking advantage of mediocre franchises willing to give up future picks for psudeo-stars (maybe sacto, nyk, orlando, etc.) and going after young underperforming guys who could use a change of scenery (Winslow, Hezonja, Stanley Johnson, etc.)

The hopes for this year's draft were that with some non-rebuilding teams in the lotto it would be a unique chance, especially since it didn't seem to be draft that was really wowing teams that much. Didn't turn out to be an opportunity and that's a shame.

It's not about finding a "star", it's about not having to settle for depreciated assets, or "tank" trades that are just about shedding salary and maybe adding a future pick (which are usually not high picks due to protections or those teams being good).

[Scraptor]

But the idea of trying to win the trades is saying that an opportunity for a trade that you're not going to win isn't really an opportunity.

A win-win trade is still an opportunity. Most of the time you have to give value to get value.

Sure. It's obviously a very complex thing.

But something that very rarely goes into people's calculus is the benefit of continuity. So in a theoretical trade where the exchange of talent is more or less equal, and all else is equal, you're going to experience a net loss due to the continuity that you've sacrificed. One reason (of many) why insisting on winning trades is a good strategy.

The point is that insisting on *really* winning trades means the trade is probably going to be an obvious loss for the other side. So why would they do it?

Bruce Arthur and Zach Lowe touch upon it in this podcast:

"Again, Masai is a naturally cautious guy. He likes to *really* win trades, not just win them."

"Well so let me just be clear. I do not think they're going to make a trade of any significance... for exactly the reason you stated, among many others"

http://pc-cdn.espnradio.com/audio/30...856920156edb57

Yes, continuity is at risk when you make a trade. But I don't think it is a guaranteed net loss because an equal exchange of talent might mean a better fit. We saw that with the Rudy Gay trade (Gay/Acy/Gray for Patterson/Hayes/Vasquez/Salmons). Rudy was the most talented player in that deal and we still benefited.

But that was a deal done for financial benefits, and the chemistry benefit was an unexpected boon. If Masai was less intent on *really* winning trades maybe we would have moved JV all those times we shopped him. Maybe we could still extract value from Kyle and/or DeMar.

The really interesting thing is that on that podcast the person they were talking about just prior was the Hawks' Paul Millsap, and Lowe said "you're just not going to get 3 unprotected first rounders for Paul Millsap in the last year of his contract". And the Hawks ended up getting nothing.

That, I think, is the biggest risk this team faces two years from now. You ask for too much, you don't get a deal done, and you're left with nothing.

[Barolt]

I find it really weird that we're turning "Our team doesn't like to make trades unless they clearly benefit our team" into a bad thing.

[JimiCliff]

The point is that insisting on *really* winning trades means the trade is probably going to be an obvious loss for the other side. So why would they do it?

It's an excellent question. But we see it happen regularly, in every sport. So I understand why one might decide to choose an overall approach based on waiting for those opportunities.

Yes, continuity is at risk when you make a trade. But I don't think it is a guaranteed net loss because an equal exchange of talent might mean a better fit.

It's not guaranteed, but I think the odds are better. Every trade you make sacrifices continuity. Fit, in terms of raw skills/abilities as well as personalities/team chemistry, can be hard to predict.

My broad opinion is that regardless of what Masai's approach actually is - and I'm sure that the 'must win every trade' thing is at least somewhat of an oversimplification - his body of work speaks for itself, and I'm willing to trust his vision. Others don't seem to be so calm - but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[golden]

A win-win trade is still an opportunity. Most of the time you have to give value to get value.

The point is that insisting on *really* winning trades means the trade is probably going to be an obvious loss for the other side. So why would they do it?

Bruce Arthur and Zach Lowe touch upon it in this podcast:

"Again, Masai is a naturally cautious guy. He likes to *really* win trades, not just win them."

I'm calling BS on this generalization, even if it's coming from the vaunted Zach Lowe. A cautious GM who wants to win every trade would never give up assets for a trade deadline rental, and yet Masai doubled down on Tucker and Ibaka 2 years ago, with no guarantees of them re-signing as free agents. And we did end up getting burned by losing Tucker for nothing.

[Quirk]

Masai has been with the team for 6 years. His biggest mistake, IMO, is resigning Ibaka. Bruno was a gamble that didn't work out, meh. He kept Casey too long, but the team made progress every year. Otherwise, all his moves have been good. The team is in good hands.

I don't know why he signed Ibaka. Maybe Casey really wanted him?

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don't really get why everyone doesn't like masai...

hes done a pretty good job. We had a team that has been in a tough place. unless you want to take a step back its hard to take a step forward. To take a step back you need to make sure its the right step back. You could just as easily end up being the Sun's or worse.

We committed to this core for 3 years. I think that is very fair. To be honest we were a bit ahead of schedule this season and then we had a huge disappointment so as always everyone wants a knee jerk reaction. Only way you traded Demar was for the Doncic kid because all other picks were just mediocre or redundant. We already have a bunch of power forwards and Center players. Poetl + Siakam + OG (sorta but more of a wing in my opinion) + ibaka + JV.

The only realistic trade I see for demar is if LA strikes out in FA and ends up wanting Demar. They would trade Ingram. That said... why would they trade Ingram?

The trade suggestions for demar thus far have been silly honestly. We won't bring up trade suggestions for lowry because... that also doesn't make sense. Lowry's play will maintain for the next two years. I think you all forget how useful expiring deals are. So if everyone can suck it up and accept we have a minimum of one more year to go under this core we are fine. You know what?

We have literally almost 0 salary on the books right after lowry, ibaka, and derozans deals come off the books.

I know this will sound crazy but I am totally ok with bringing it back. I think Demar will be better. I know that he will show improvements in his game. I dont know if he will show the improvements we specifically need (3pts + consistent defence).

I am very curious to see what happens with Ibaka. I would like to see him have a bounce back year where he plays much more consistently on both ends (I think he is the key in all of this).

You suck it up for two years and then we are going to be looking a LOT better as a worst case scenario. Demar for wiggins doesn't change much. Also do you all really want Wiggins who has been known to have work ethic issues, and complains a lot on offence.

One thing you have to give the organization credit for is their ability to create a good positive culture every year. Everyone buys in. They bring in the proper guys personality wise who want to be a part of this. I think we just need more growth from the young guys and in free agency we need more two way players.

We do that and we will be fine. Maybe not championship in hte next couple years but we will be fine. Some ppl are talking about tanking for RJ barrett... whats the point. We won't be as bad as some of the crap teams from this past year. We won't be bad enough to get the #1 and with the lottery changing there is no guarantee that we get it anyways.


I will judge Masai when we have more cap flexibility (2 seasons). When he has all the cap room in the world to work with. I would imagine lowry would be let go at that point. So would ibaka. Even if we keep demar he is loyal enough to give us a discount. We would have two max or close to max spots to run with to go and get ppl to come run with us.

[Hotshot]

I don't know why he signed Ibaka. Maybe Casey really wanted him?

He signed Ibaka because that was the promise we gave him when we traded him for our 1st round pick (Kuzma) and T-Ross. There was a belief that Ibaka can be a difference maker in the playoffs.

[JimiCliff]

Stein continues twisting the knife:

Toronto will have to keep searching to fill the main chairs beside new coach Nick Nurse after being rebuffed in their pursuit of Jasikevicius and Pelicans assistant Chris Finch https://t.co/bzU3dhMKUs

— Marc Stein (@TheSteinLine) June 23, 2018