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  • Creating something new

    Masai said something that resonated with me in his press conference. He mentioned setting trends. I am just wondering are we setting the trend of building a balanced team before anyone else does it. Our bench being strong and then the drop off between our starts to our bench is not a gaping chasm?

    Like realistically I think its better that we don't just rely on our stars. Look at teams like OKC.. their bench blows so badly.

  • #2
    TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
    Masai said something that resonated with me in his press conference. He mentioned setting trends. I am just wondering are we setting the trend of building a balanced team before anyone else does it. Our bench being strong and then the drop off between our starts to our bench is not a gaping chasm?

    Like realistically I think its better that we don't just rely on our stars. Look at teams like OKC.. their bench blows so badly.
    Now you have just ensured that I will listen to the presser. Raptors are one of the few teams that has followed the Spurs lead of mining for gold in the draft tailings. They could be in the forefront of really working at turning those late draft picks into a cohesive unit. Something to be said for familiarity; increased trust, smoother operation of offensive and defensive schemes, knowledge of tendencies and shooting sweet spots. I don't know if the hockey shift change has been a conscious decision (how can it not be) but they have certainly got something going.

    Is there any other contending team out there whose starters average as few minutes as the Raptors? The quality of their second unit allows a relatively low usage rate. This should reduce wear and tear. Extremely important for Ibaka and Lowry. At the same time it allows more minutes (experience) for the bench mob.

    It could well be a new thing that gets copied. More balance across the roster, and more punishing of teams with a talent drop off.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good topic, OP. Lots of good discussion fodder here. Playing both sports, I always thought about how you could introduce the energy advantage that hockey shifts give you into basketball and if you look at the Raps second unit, it's doing just that. Raps second unit is just running guys off the floor. Kudos to Casey and Masai on that one.

      However, a lot of this is predicated on the ability to actually find cheap depth talent, which Masai demonstrated when he was the Nuggets GM. So really, if you can't find those hidden gems, that none of the rest really matters. We're capitalizing on what Masai does best, to make up for the inability to attract a true elite player.

      After that it's all about development and chemistry, which again, you have to give the nod to Casey, his staff and Stackhouse. Drafting hard-working, unselfish character guys over super-talented egomaniacs makes the chemistry work much easier, on and off the court. This is totally Spursian.

      Finally, none of this works that well if we're playing the previous playing the old playing style which would have seen Delon or FVV in the "Lowry role" and Norm and Delon in the "DeMar role", with KL/DD still playing 35-39 MPG. Changing the playing style has helped to unlock the depth of talent that Masai is able to find.

      Comment


      • #4
        As with so much of the 2017/18 season, the proof will be in the playoffs. The Raptors bench has been strong before (no this much fun though) but in the playoffs, when stars play 40+ minutes per game, the bench effect really diminishes. It feels different this year but we shall see. The good thing is that we have seen our bench hold their own against other teams starters at times.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah I was going to make the original post longer but I was passing out lol.

          I mean you look at our defensive highlights vs the celtics



          We play well because we have been able to have good chemistry between the units. The things that I have noticed between last year and this year is the Lowry+ bench unit is no longer a thing. Lowry used to help lead and run that bench unit. We used to stagger our star's minutes. The nice thing now is we no longer need to do that. We have developed guys like Delon's shot to the point where the bench can take care of itself. In fact often times it is our bench vs their starters with bench units. Since there isn't a drop off it means that we have less concern with our stars wearing out but it also means their stars get tired and allow us to put our starters back in.

          The other thing is you look at our team make up. We are still young but we aren't so young that it is a concern. We have smart guys too. Part of bostons issue (besides the hayward thing) is they have young long good guys... BUT because they have such a young team they are often putting themselves in a hole in the first part of games. This is similar to how we were a few years ago when we were called "we the fourth". We would not only be down but we would be down by such a margin that we would have to grind it out. I think even in that year we played the pacers in the playoffs in that first round and we had that ridiculous come back with the dunk by Norm Powell. Again though it is such an emotional rollercoaster that it takes its toll even as a fan so you could imagine how much of a toll it takes on the players to have to dig themselves out. The raptors this year and to a lesser extent last year don't have this issue. It allows us to roll out line ups hockey style and again I really think its the lack of drop off that allows use to be successful. Everyone on the bench mob gets solid minutes so they can't complain and they all get a chance to play.

          One thing that I have heard less from fans this year is about Dwayne Caseys minute distribution. I do think he can work on his time out patterns a bit though.

          So here is my opinions on some of the key contributors on the bench.

          Delon: He is super lengthy and tall and his euro step is wicked but the craziest thing about this kid is his defence. He can really read passing lanes and he can switch even up to 3 positions at times. He also can rebound well for a guard because of his size.



          FVV: He plays with a sort of calm and poise and stoic demeanour. Learning about his story you understand why. There are times I would like him to pass a tiny bit more but the guy is the mini engine that could and I just hope we are able to retain him. He is able to hit 3s doesn't get lost on defence and is actually pretty good on both ends of the floor.

          CJ Miles: He hasn't played a ton this year because of weird injuries and what not but when he does and gets into a rhythm he can go off for 5-6 or more 3s a game easily. Especially if the defences actually give him any day light. I think he works very well on this unit to give them some extra veteran presence but also to give the team that 3 point shot.




          Poetl: I cant say anything bad about him. He is just a very solid good player. His freethrows and shot need some work but he plays within his own game. He has had one bad game recently but overall his positioning is always really good, he is able to run the floor really well. He always does well against the warriors too. He can guard really well and his defence (becoming a bit more of a shot blocker as of late but I wouldn't call him that), is primarily based on positioning which is the most important aspect. He is NEVER lost and he always talks in defence.

          Pascal: P-Skills brings that energy. I remember ppl called him like a biyombo-lite but he is way more than that. The speed at which he runs the floor is insane. If he could ever work on his dribbling ability he would really be able to open up his game. The kid works hard and again on defence he is good but on offence he also allows us to have a crazy transition game on our second unit.




          Norm Powell: He has a chance to be very good. He plays good defence but he is in some weird overall funk although he has come out of it a bit as of late. The key thing with him is he drives with his head down so he isn't good at seeing passes off his drives and he needs to work on his finishing ability. While this isn't the best year for him I think he will come on late. His drives have always been good at opening up options for other players.


          Last but not least I want to mention the fact that guys like OG being in the starting line up has been really great.
          It has allowed him to focus on very small things which he does well. I think he will play a much bigger role later on.




          I think someone mentioned that the rotation has to shrink down to 8 for play offs and masai (on tsn) recently asked who made up that rule. I think that is a very good question to ask. There is no reason why we have to run 8 deep when it works well with 10. It keeps everyone way more fresh. No one really feels left out. I think its our strength and it is what sets us apart.

          Comment


          • #6
            Jclaw wrote: View Post
            As with so much of the 2017/18 season, the proof will be in the playoffs. The Raptors bench has been strong before (no this much fun though) but in the playoffs, when stars play 40+ minutes per game, the bench effect really diminishes. It feels different this year but we shall see. The good thing is that we have seen our bench hold their own against other teams starters at times.
            I think in the past though there was a bigger drop off before the development of the players on our bench. Also we went in with stars being injured so hopefully that is different this year. I do think that we can afford to play our bench similar to how we play them in the regular season. It really does give us a different look.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jclaw wrote: View Post
              As with so much of the 2017/18 season, the proof will be in the playoffs. The Raptors bench has been strong before (no this much fun though) but in the playoffs, when stars play 40+ minutes per game, the bench effect really diminishes. It feels different this year but we shall see. The good thing is that we have seen our bench hold their own against other teams starters at times.
              Previous benches were strong, but that was mainly because of the Lowry + Bench effect. When Lowry got shutdown in the playoffs, the whole thing got out of sync and the role players couldn't hit their shots or make decisions with the ball in their hands. They never had to make decisions, other than: find Kyle and Demar and get the ball back to them.

              Now the bench seems to operate, at times, much better without Lowry or DeMar, where the ball is moving freely to the open man, regardless. And if the shot is missed, there's no fear of dirty look from one of our all-stars. This is kind of an underrated benefit of not having either Kyle or Demar out there with a bench unit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Valid points

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is an interesting discussion. For years now the NBA has gone in the direction of the dominant player or players being placed in the role of winning or losing the game. The now standard "iso" as the clock runs out at the end of each quarter is the epitome of this. Of course the "iso" always features the most marquee player on the court; Demar or Kyle for us, Butler for Minny, Lebron, Kyrie etc, etc.. But how often does the "iso" end up in a contested, almost desperate shot? Very often from what I see.

                  No question that in basketball a single dominant player can be hard to handle. The rules (supposed no contact) favour the offence and on a given night someone with great skills like Demar or Kyrie can be very hard to stop. I think the "dominant player" approach really came to fruition with the Michael Jordan era. The idea was that you were playing against him and a supporting cast and that MJ would always find a way to win.

                  Before that what was the all time greatest team? The Celtics of the late 50s-late 60s. Who was their best player? Bill Russell. How many points did Russell score? Well.....not that many. Twenty on good nights. But the Celtics had by far the best fast break in basketball, one that has never been equalled since. They had countless team players who could pass and defend and sometimes shoot. Guys like Havlicek and Heinsohn and Jones who are fairly unknown now (except as obnoxious broadcasters) but were truly all around players.

                  So the precedent is actually there. The Celtics never played iso ball. Never. (I remember some of it....I'm old and got to go to some games as a kid). Russell himself would have kicked the ass of anyone who didn't pass. There is no reason why the Raptors couldn't play team ball and not give a damn about what superstar the other team might have. There is only one ball and if you have 3 superstars on the same team only one guy can shoot per possession; and then you get it back. Even the Lebron's and KDs only shoot about 50%.

                  I actually like the Demar who scores 20 and has 7 assists and plays some D much better than the guy who scores 35, ignores JV all night and lets some unknown guy he's guarding score 20.

                  Though of course I'd love to see Pascal develop a better shot I think he is an "old Celtic" type player who works his ass off, runs like crazy, blocks, defends passes and smiles as if he loves to play. Actually the whole second unit are "old Celtic" players. Ujiri should keep this group together. He'll need to find some money to increase their pay as they keep winning. Kyle and Demar would need to sacrifice as did Duncan, Parker and Ginobli in San Antonio by taking less money as they aged but stay around for leadership.

                  What about Golden State? Again only one ball. I still think KD plays too much iso and I'm not sure they are really better offensively with him. He helps their D for sure because he's actually trying now and they are otherwise small. But the shots he takes often were taken before by Curry and Thompson and I'm not sure he's that much better. What makes Golden State great is that when they are engaged the entire team plays hard, defends and passes the ball. Their offence is versatile with a mixture of fast break, shooters coming off screens, back door cuts etc.

                  So my major point is that perhaps the modern NBA has become too wrapped up in the idea that you need a superstar to win. The Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron idolatry sells jerseys and shoes but do you really need an icon to win? I think the Raptors current approach is intriguing. No moves at the deadline (well....Bruno) is telling. I actually hope they don't sign an old shooter as a buy out unless is was someone who isn't a one dimensional player. Our current team has a chance to be even better by playoff time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is an interesting discussion. For years now the NBA has gone in the direction of the dominant player or players being placed in the role of winning or losing the game. The now standard "iso" as the clock runs out at the end of each quarter is the epitome of this. Of course the "iso" always features the most marquee player on the court; Demar or Kyle for us, Butler for Minny, Lebron, Kyrie etc, etc.. But how often does the "iso" end up in a contested, almost desperate shot? Very often from what I see.

                    No question that in basketball a single dominant player can be hard to handle. The rules (supposed no contact) favour the offence and on a given night someone with great skills like Demar or Kyrie can be very hard to stop. I think the "dominant player" approach really came to fruition with the Michael Jordan era. The idea was that you were playing against him and a supporting cast and that MJ would always find a way to win.

                    Before that what was the all time greatest team? The Celtics of the late 50s-late 60s. Who was their best player? Bill Russell. How many points did Russell score? Well.....not that many. Twenty on good nights. But the Celtics had by far the best fast break in basketball, one that has never been equalled since. They had countless team players who could pass and defend and sometimes shoot. Guys like Havlicek and Heinsohn and Jones who are fairly unknown now (except as obnoxious broadcasters) but were truly all around players.

                    So the precedent is actually there. The Celtics never played iso ball. Never. (I remember some of it....I'm old and got to go to some games as a kid). Russell himself would have kicked the ass of anyone who didn't pass. There is no reason why the Raptors couldn't play team ball and not give a damn about what superstar the other team might have. There is only one ball and if you have 3 superstars on the same team only one guy can shoot per possession; and then you get it back. Even the Lebron's and KDs only shoot about 50%.

                    I actually like the Demar who scores 20 and has 7 assists and plays some D much better than the guy who scores 35, ignores JV all night and lets some unknown guy he's guarding score 20.

                    Though of course I'd love to see Pascal develop a better shot I think he is an "old Celtic" type player who works his ass off, runs like crazy, blocks, defends passes and smiles as if he loves to play. Actually the whole second unit are "old Celtic" players. Ujiri should keep this group together. He'll need to find some money to increase their pay as they keep winning. Kyle and Demar would need to sacrifice as did Duncan, Parker and Ginobli in San Antonio by taking less money as they aged but stay around for leadership.

                    What about Golden State? Again only one ball. I still think KD plays too much iso and I'm not sure they are really better offensively with him. He helps their D for sure because he's actually trying now and they are otherwise small. But the shots he takes often were taken before by Curry and Thompson and I'm not sure he's that much better. What makes Golden State great is that when they are engaged the entire team plays hard, defends and passes the ball. Their offence is versatile with a mixture of fast break, shooters coming off screens, back door cuts etc.

                    So my major point is that perhaps the modern NBA has become too wrapped up in the idea that you need a superstar to win. The Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron idolatry sells jerseys and shoes but do you really need an icon to win? I think the Raptors current approach is intriguing. No moves at the deadline (well....Bruno) is telling. I actually hope they don't sign an old shooter as a buy out unless is was someone who isn't a one dimensional player. Our current team has a chance to be even better by playoff time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Great post Mitch. I was also glad to see it was a double post though and not two separate ones -- haha.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GOLDBLUM wrote: View Post
                        Great post Mitch. I was also glad to see it was a double post though and not two separate ones -- haha.

                        I got to like it twice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Playoffs will definitely be interesting this year. Wonder if Casey continues to trot out this bench for full minutes against guys that will be playing minutes in the high 30's or low 40's. Guys like Wall/Beal, Giannis, Lebron, Kyrie, etc will get a sh!t load of minutes. And it might be a tall task to have our bench unit go up against those guys without a Kyle or DeMar (or both).

                          But on the other hand our bench has been so good that they might just be able to compete with them. It will be interesting to see what happens in game 1, and if any adjustments get made in games 2 or 3 if they can't keep up.

                          But if this team can succeed with its bench and get to the finals, and actually make it hard for GSW... then I think it will be a type of team others will actually try to copy.

                          It's hard to get a stud / top 5 talent.. but it might be easier to create a bench that you develop in the G-League together.

                          We're sort of copying the Spursian model, but the Spurs always had a top 5 / Hall of Fame talent .. plus the Spurs did it with vets (Manu, Parker, Gasol, etc). Kyle is the oldest guy on our team and he's only 31.

                          And I love how Masai/Casey draft guys. It's like the perfect type of bball player for where the NBA is currently at. Length is a must. Quickness helps. Shooting really helps. Richardson should fit right in.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The main opposition to this 5 man sub pattern is do you have the subs? Being 3 deep at every position is essential. Then having the right talent at each position dictates whether you'll be covering holes on D or building opportunities around certain positions on offense. Can everyone draft that calibre and talent? Maybe. Do you have the personnel to assume that the backup at each spot doesn't need to know the role of the starter they back up? The thinking behind having a backup kloe or DD in fvv and norm is to run the same offense and have the same mindset to plug holes in the starting lineup. To avoid changing the starters style of play and effectively have two sets. Teaching two sets and having plugs is divergent. Unless you accept you can teach two roles and styles and mentalities simultaneously. Then the hockey change can take away from what you're doing.

                            Props to continuity, Dwane, and the players for at one point learning how to step into someone else's shoes and then learning a flowing pass first offense of there own.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
                              I am just wondering are we setting the trend of building a balanced team before anyone else does it.
                              I'd say no since it really wasn't planned, just fortunate. And we have no idea if Casey (or bench mob themselves) will follow in the post season

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