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  • Scraptor wrote: View Post
    LeBron couldn't beat the Mavs with Wade and Bosh beside him, and at 17.8 ppg was outscored by 33-year-old Jason Terry (outshot by 6.4%TS). Losing to the Spurs was less of a black mark but still notable.

    LeBron needs to be surrounded with shooters... Against the Jazz in 1998 the Bulls had one floor spacer in Kerr (and maybe Kukoc). Aside from Kerr no regular shot above 30.8% from outside. Combine that with Rodman and Longley and there's no spacing for LeBron, the paint is clogged, and he's forced to settle for jumpers where he's shakiest.
    The paint wouldn't be clogged, just like it wasn't for Jordan, because defence rules prevented you from playing off your man the same way you can today. LeBron would feast on the largely 1-on-1 defensive scenarios that were the norm back then.

    But how would Jordan manage in today's game? He's a worse shooter and playmaker than LeBron.

    LeBron needs to be surrounded with shooters because of the way the game is today, not because of his own style of play. Jordan would need the same.

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    • S.R. wrote: View Post
      No. And if you put LBJ on MJ's Bulls and face the Finals teams he faced, I'd put good money on Lebron going 6-0.
      Why can't they just both be awesome? There always has to be an answer for everything..

      I blame tupac vs biggie
      It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        The paint wouldn't be clogged, just like it wasn't for Jordan, because defence rules prevented you from playing off your man the same way you can today. LeBron would feast on the largely 1-on-1 defensive scenarios that were the norm back then.

        But how would Jordan manage in today's game? He's a worse shooter and playmaker than LeBron.

        LeBron needs to be surrounded with shooters because of the way the game is today, not because of his own style of play. Jordan would need the same.
        Jordan, in today's no hand check NBA? He would average 50ppg in today's game lol. DeRozan who's a midrange/slasher type of player averaged 27ppg in a season. Michael Jordan is like 10x better player than DeRozan lol.

        As for LeBron being the better shooter, LeBron is the better 3pt shooter for sure but Jordan is the better midrange shooter.
        Mamba Mentality

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        • KeonClark wrote: View Post
          Why can't they just both be awesome? There always has to be an answer for everything..

          I blame tupac vs biggie
          Eminem > Tupac/Biggie
          Mamba Mentality

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          • Scraptor wrote: View Post
            LeBron couldn't beat the Mavs with Wade and Bosh beside him, and at 17.8 ppg was outscored by 33-year-old Jason Terry (outshot by 6.4%TS). Losing to the Spurs was less of a black mark but still notable.

            LeBron needs to be surrounded with shooters... Against the Jazz in 1998 the Bulls had one floor spacer in Kerr (and maybe Kukoc). Aside from Kerr no regular shot above 30.8% from outside. Combine that with Rodman and Longley and there's no spacing for LeBron, the paint is clogged, and he's forced to settle for jumpers where he's shakiest.
            You're mixing up the dynamics of two different eras and laying the fault with Lebron for no reason.

            MJ didn't need shooters because you couldn't drift off your man into space before the defensive rule changes. Guys had to stick to their man or properly double the guy with the ball. You know how everyone says today's perimeter players couldn't handle the old hand checking rules? I'd say guys like MJ who shot under 30% from three for 9 of his 15 seasons would have had a much harder time going at the basket now than he did then. Not that he couldn't - MJ is incredible - but part of the reason he didn't need 4 shooters on the floor with him to dominate was because of the old defence rules - guys had to stick to their cover and for the most part he was taking guys one-on-one. If he played today I think his Bulls teams would need more shooters, both to create space for him and to keep up with the barrage of 3's today's teams put up.

            Lebron wouldn't need space creators in the 90's for the same reason MJ didn't. MJ would need space creators today for the same reason almost every team now likes surrounding their best 1 or 2 players with shooters. Defences have changed - a lot. (Also math finally convinced virtually everybody in the NBA of the value of 3's. That's completely changed lineups and rosters - for the better.)
            Last edited by S.R.; Sun Jun 10, 2018, 11:25 PM.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • TRex wrote: View Post
              Jordan, in today's no hand check NBA? He would average 50ppg in today's game lol. DeRozan who's a midrange/slasher type of player averaged 27ppg in a season. Michael Jordan is like 10x better player than DeRozan lol.

              As for LeBron being the better shooter, LeBron is the better 3pt shooter for sure but Jordan is the better midrange shooter.
              The hand check has literally nothing to do with this argument at all. Do you think LeBron would struggle in the hand check era? He would be barreling down the lane for dunks and layups all night long.

              You couldn't cheat off your man or play any kind of D resembling a zone in the old days. Sending help was a lot trickier than it is now and you couldn't just cheat off bad shooters to deny driving lanes. If Jordan didn't have shooters around him in today's game, he would find it very hard to to win, and as most teams in those days, the Bulls weren't exactly stacked with shooters.

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                • The one thing about Jordan is that he would perfect his 3pt shot if he needed to. Never seen a guy as competitive as he was. If it's a 3pt shot that would help you win then he's going to have one of the best 3pt shots in the game.

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                  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    The hand check has literally nothing to do with this argument at all. Do you think LeBron would struggle in the hand check era? He would be barreling down the lane for dunks and layups all night long.

                    You couldn't cheat off your man or play any kind of D resembling a zone in the old days. Sending help was a lot trickier than it is now and you couldn't just cheat off bad shooters to deny driving lanes. If Jordan didn't have shooters around him in today's game, he would find it very hard to to win, and as most teams in those days, the Bulls weren't exactly stacked with shooters.
                    Again, DeRozan last year averaged 27ppg. And it's not like the Raptors were loaded with shooters either. Who was the Raps best 3pt shooter last year? Carroll? Lowry? Pattersson? That team won 50 something games. Even the team that went to the ECF 2 years ago. That team wasn't loaded with great shooters either.

                    I'm pretty sure Jordan's Bulls would be just fine if they played in this era - in fact i think they would completely dominate all these teams.

                    Imagine Jordan against all these no hand check, soft defenses that they have now? He would average 50ppg no doubt.

                    If a SG like DeRozan who can't shoot 3 can average 27ppg in today's NBA. Pretty sure Jordan could average A LOT more than that.
                    Mamba Mentality

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                    • TRex wrote: View Post
                      Again, DeRozan last year averaged 27ppg. And it's not like the Raptors were loaded with shooters either. Who was the Raps best 3pt shooter last year? Carroll? Lowry? Pattersson? That team won 50 something games. Even the team that went to the ECF 2 years ago. That team wasn't loaded with great shooters either.

                      I'm pretty sure Jordan's Bulls would be just fine if they played in this era - in fact i think they would completely dominate all these teams.

                      Imagine Jordan against all these no hand check, soft defenses that they have now? He would average 50ppg no doubt.

                      If a SG like DeRozan who can't shoot 3 can average 27ppg in today's NBA. Pretty sure Jordan could average A LOT more than that.
                      I think you're underrating Derozan a little bit. Obviously he's no Jordan or anything and he's got his problems with his game but he's absolutely elite at driving and scoring in the paint, even with a little bit of traffic (obviously a lot of traffic gives him problems).
                      That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

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                      • TRex wrote: View Post
                        Again, DeRozan last year averaged 27ppg. And it's not like the Raptors were loaded with shooters either. Who was the Raps best 3pt shooter last year? Carroll? Lowry? Pattersson? That team won 50 something games. Even the team that went to the ECF 2 years ago. That team wasn't loaded with great shooters either.

                        I'm pretty sure Jordan's Bulls would be just fine if they played in this era - in fact i think they would completely dominate all these teams.

                        Imagine Jordan against all these no hand check, soft defenses that they have now? He would average 50ppg no doubt.

                        If a SG like DeRozan who can't shoot 3 can average 27ppg in today's NBA. Pretty sure Jordan could average A LOT more than that.
                        Wow you just totally lack perspective.

                        The 98 Bulls the that won shot .323 from 3 on 11.7 attempts per game. Kerr was the only great shooter, and he and Kukoc were the only regulars to shoot over 35%. And Pippen at .318 was the next regular and only other one over 30%. Very different game back then and you could not manage with that lack of shooting in today's game.

                        The Raps team from 2016-17 shot .363 from 3 and 24.3 attempts. That is a massive difference in efficiency and volume. Lowry, Ibaka, Tucker, FVV, Ross, Patterson and Joseph all shot over 35%. And Carroll at about 34% and Wright at 33% weren't awful.

                        They might still be a good team, but they would have massive issues as they try to make deep playoff runs with that lack of shooting.

                        Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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                        • Last edited by A.I; Mon Jun 11, 2018, 01:40 PM.

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Wow you just totally lack perspective.

                            The 98 Bulls the that won shot .323 from 3 on 11.7 attempts per game. Kerr was the only great shooter, and he and Kukoc were the only regulars to shoot over 35%. And Pippen at .318 was the next regular and only other one over 30%. Very different game back then and you could not manage with that lack of shooting in today's game.

                            The Raps team from 2016-17 shot .363 from 3 and 24.3 attempts. That is a massive difference in efficiency and volume. Lowry, Ibaka, Tucker, FVV, Ross, Patterson and Joseph all shot over 35%. And Carroll at about 34% and Wright at 33% weren't awful.

                            They might still be a good team, but they would have massive issues as they try to make deep playoff runs with that lack of shooting.

                            Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
                            It's funny how you keep talking about "3pt shooting" and keep ignoring the Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen effect.

                            It's also like you're using the numbers to completely change the narrative. Carroll, Pattersson, Joseph, Ibaka...those guys are all AWFUL 3pt shooters.i don't give a damn about what the numbers say. Those guys couldn't make shots specially when their team needed them the most.

                            Also, if the Bulls played in this era, you don't think they would be shooting more 3's? Kukoc and Kerr would shoot a lot more 3's, Pippen would shoot a lot more 3's and MJ i'm sure would perfect the 3pt shot.
                            Mamba Mentality

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                            • TRex wrote: View Post
                              It's funny how you keep talking about "3pt shooting" and keep ignoring the Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen effect.

                              It's also like you're using the numbers to completely change the narrative. Carroll, Pattersson, Joseph, Ibaka...those guys are all AWFUL 3pt shooters.i don't give a damn about what the numbers say. Those guys couldn't make shots specially when their team needed them the most.

                              Also, if the Bulls played in this era, you don't think they would be shooting more 3's? Kukoc and Kerr would shoot a lot more 3's, Pippen would shoot a lot more 3's and MJ i'm sure would perfect the 3pt shot.
                              I'm not changing the narrative. We can only go by what actually happened. The Bulls teams didn't have shooting. They were bad at it even for their era. You can't just assume that they would automatically be significantly better in today's game because of its importance.

                              You were arguing Jordan's Bulls would thrive without a handcheck rule and completely ignoring the changes in defensive rules other than that.

                              This has been a discussion centered on the MJ vs LeBron comparison. I haven't seen you or anyone else make a compelling argument as to why LeBron would not win as many titles as MJ if you put him on those Bulls teams, or why MJ would do better than LeBron in this era on the same Cavs and Heat teams. Just bullshit narratives about "what a competitor" Jordan was.

                              Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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                              • People really have to be conscious of how the game changes.

                                You could get by with just 2-3 scorers in the old days. Your other two guys could be functionally useless offensive players and it wouldn't matter.

                                You know why GSW went small? Bogut was killing them in the Finals the first year they won because the Cavs were just cheating off him to shift their whole D to better defend the other 4 guys. So the small lineup became their top unit because that's how they could get 5 threats out there to put pressure on the D and open up space. That's how it works now. Whether you go small or not you need to force the D to respect all the guys on the court or else space disappears. It's hard to try to be a contender if you can't do that.

                                Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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